Safety first, Canadians second

[climb2core]

lowering from anchors is lazy form. who is paying for the replacement costs? not just the hardware, but someone elses time to go behind you and clean up your mess. you want to lower, then leave a biner every time

Umm, I am lazy. That is why I sport climb... duh!

[Shamis]

lowering from anchors is lazy form. who is paying for the replacement costs? not just the hardware, but someone elses time to go behind you and clean up your mess. you want to lower, then leave a biner every time

Confirming that pigsteak always raps.

[allah]

Seen Piggy Lower!

[ynot]

I found aluminum rings on trad routes at the Red a couple times. the ring around the inside and the weight is the giveaway. I don't trust them. Even a cheap quiklink is better.

[Isaac McShane]

OK Well then it is different for you than other climbers. Since you are a large beast and she was probably 100 pounds lighter than you then she feels safe lowering through the anchors. If you feel the need to Rap, so be it. If she feels the need to lower through perfectly safe rings, so be it. Sometimes if someone is doing something you wouldn't do, and they are being safe about it, then you might just want to keep quiet about your opinion. Rapping and lowering on a sport route with chains/rings/quick links is up to the climber, its not up to the peanut gallery.

Your freedom ends where mine begins. What I mean by that is if someone wants to jeopardize their safety, that's their decision, and I won't police the area. But if every 100lb person feels safe lowering through rap rings, eventually the same damage will be done that a fraction of us large beasts are capable of. Then I get up there and see ruined rap rings, which is now jeopardizing my safety, and that ain't cool. Maybe I want to get drunk and stoned before I go climbing. It's moronic, but it's my choice and it doesn't affect anyone else, right? What about when I fall 60 feet and land on your head? If you don't want to play by the rules perhaps you shouldn't visit public areas. That's what I think at least.

[dustonian]

Then replace the rap rings if they're unsafe, fool! Do you have any idea how much hardware allah (Kenny) has donated to the Red over the years? Try rap-cleaning a route steeper than 15-20 degrees and you'll drop the moralizing pretty quick.

[climb2core]

OK Well then it is different for you than other climbers. Since you are a large beast and she was probably 100 pounds lighter than you then she feels safe lowering through the anchors. If you feel the need to Rap, so be it. If she feels the need to lower through perfectly safe rings, so be it. Sometimes if someone is doing something you wouldn't do, and they are being safe about it, then you might just want to keep quiet about your opinion. Rapping and lowering on a sport route with chains/rings/quick links is up to the climber, its not up to the peanut gallery.

Your freedom ends where mine begins. What I mean by that is if someone wants to jeopardize their safety, that's their decision, and I won't police the area. But if every 100lb person feels safe lowering through rap rings, eventually the same damage will be done that a fraction of us large beasts are capable of. Then I get up there and see ruined rap rings, which is now jeopardizing my safety, and that ain't cool. Maybe I want to get drunk and stoned before I go climbing. It's moronic, but it's my choice and it doesn't affect anyone else, right? What about when I fall 60 feet and land on your head? If you don't want to play by the rules perhaps you shouldn't visit public areas. That's what I think at least.

I believe the consensus is that the last person cleaning on belay is currently acceptable ethics in the Red. Some people don't feel safe rapping and cleaning, others don't know how to, and many routes are steep making it more challenging. It is your responsibility to inspect fixed gear and make the appropriate decision for you. I always have a leave biner on my harness and could use that if needed.

I really think some guidelines for local crag ethics should be developed by the local experts and put into print into the guidebook to clarify and lay down some do's and don'ts...

[cliftongifford]

I really think some guidelines for local crag ethics should be developed by the local experts and put into print into the guidebook to clarify and lay down some do's and don'ts...

+1

Try rap-cleaning a route steeper than 15-20 degrees and you'll drop the moralizing pretty quick.

I agree that this is the fastest most efficient method, and something I sometimes do when people are waiting on steeper routes, but it undoubtedly wears on fixed gear. Another less convenient method is to have your partner or yourself clean the route on TR, then it makes no difference how steep the wall is. Of course, somebody's climbing on top-rope, and I'm not sure how cool that is...

[Andrew]

I really think some guidelines for local crag ethics should be developed by the local experts and put into print into the guidebook to clarify and lay down some do's and don'ts...

+1

Try rap-cleaning a route steeper than 15-20 degrees and you'll drop the moralizing pretty quick.

I agree that this is the fastest most efficient method, and something I sometimes do when people are waiting on steeper routes, but it undoubtedly wears on fixed gear. Another less convenient method is to have your partner or yourself clean the route on TR, then it makes no difference how steep the wall is. Of course, somebody's climbing on top-rope, and I'm not sure how cool that is...

Who would agree to cleaning on top-rope?

[krampus]

-1