The anatomy of a overused crag?

[climb2core]

What about Access fund... I am admittedly ignorant. Can we partner with them to come up with a plan... Seems like they are well on there way to addressing some of the issues occurring at the Red:

http://www.accessfund.org/atf/cf/%7B1F5 ... CM-web.pdf

The document above is dedicated to developing a climbing management plan and appears to provide a really good roadmap.

[crazyhair]

I think that you guys are putting too much blame on beginning climbers. I might not be a great climber, but I follow LNT and encourage those around me to do so as well. I'm quiet at crags, I pick up my trash and whatever I find lying around that I can fit in a bag and I've never peed under an overhang in my life.

I think that the problem here isn't the beginning climbers, but the people who don't really care about nature.

Here's my proposal- most climbing gyms have a belay tag that people have to wear to climb, right? Why don't we develop our own? Have a basic LNT/climbing/crag ethics class at Miguel's or some alternate location where people pay a small fee for the class and the tag- if we see people at a crag that don't have a tag on their harness, we politely ask them to leave- this could also be used to prevent climbing accidents- test if people can belay before they get the tag. Every tag has a number and if we see somebody at a crag that's leaving trash, playing loud music or belaying wrong- we take down their number and have their tag revoked. Use the tag fees to help cleanup trails.

The class/tag fee will hopefully cut down on some traffic, and will hopefully make the existing traffic less obnoxious and disrespectful.

Maybe this would work, and maybe it wouldn't, but it's worth a try, right?

I'm not a good climber, but I'm working at getting better, I love the red and I love the people and the red is actually closer to where I live than the nearest climbing gym. Don't punish the "bad" climbers because of a few idiots that make a mess, disrespectful people can climb 5.13's too.

[Andrew]

Personally, I am not even talking about poorly behaved climbers. Just too many climbers at a cliff, and this includes places like the Lode

[vertical1]

Why is there talk of too many easier routes. The undertow wall is more abused, overcrowded, and trashed than most crags I can think of. I would say worse than my couple times venturing to bruise brothers, or walking past animal cracker wall at muir.

[bcombs]

As Andrew stated... The discussion isn't on who practices LNT and who doesn't, who can climb what grade, etc... I think the question is, if the plan is to spread out the masses to reduce impact, what would be most effective? I certainly don't think the increase in impact is due to climbers of a certain grade, but it does stand to reason that an influx of people is likely primarily beginners. Time will weed out some or they will start to climb more difficult routes, etc... But if the widest part of the funnel is always folks in a certain grade range, that needs to be considered when thinking of how to spread them out.

[clif]

I guess my point is that I am not sure we can reduce the impact on crags by charging parking fees or usage fees, (nor are they feasible) but could we reduce impact by spreading people out.

i think the two approaches act cooperatively in the free market kind of way. consumers are forced to acknowledge the costs of their actions, the money is then used to allow 'business' to invest in further development.

if there really is hundreds of miles of cliffline along the cumberland plateau i think the model of what has happened in the red would be sufficient incentive. i do think that a revenue generating/liability free legal framework needs to be worked out. the rest pig and you (Andrew) can take care of.

[One-Fall]

The Red has been marketed too well. Until that changes, we are stuck.

[SCIN]

Four words will solve this issue. Two girls one cup.

[pigsteak]

climbing for most folks is a social scene..it is half about climbing for those around you, and half being able to spray and bounce your tatties. insecurities dictate that climbers must be seen when sending and climbing. why else would the Lode always be busy? the Lode needs to be closed as much if not more then RS. what a stench pile. why is the Lode busy..because at the end of the day, everyone knows the route 8ball or chainsaw, and you get bumped up in the mating hierarchy when you spray about these sends. human beings will not change..I have had no less than a half dozen folks ask why our latest crag is not online so they can get their points....for real people?

[krampus]

The Red has been marketed too well. Until that changes, we are stuck.

+1 for sure, I post the same thing in one of the other 4 threads about this topic