Climbing Accident in Muir

[THB]

Toad - The distance the knot was tied from the belay device is irrelevant because since the rope slips through at between 3 to 4 kN, the knot will eventually be up against the device since we were pulling at a force that causes these devices to slip...

caribe - Interesting catch 22, but I do have an answer for you... I'll discuss it with you in the gym the next time I see you in there...

SCIN - Truth... fo'real!

[Shamis]

slow pull test is not realistic and neither is 4kN on a gri-gri... 4kN on the gri-gri would probably mean the last piece of gear is impacting for at least 10kN. Good luck with that.

EDIT: it would also mean that your 800 pound belayer would fly away.

[caribe]

slow pull test is not realistic and neither is 4kN on a gri-gri... 4kN on the gri-gri would probably mean the last piece of gear is impacting for at least 10kN. Good luck with that. EDIT: it would also mean that your 800 pound belayer would fly away.

Agreed!

[Toad]

I'd have to see the videos. Until then, I'm going out on a limb and calling bullshit.

I see no way that in a real life fall that someone could stop a gri-gri from engaging by simply grabbing onto the ascending side of the rope. Firstly, who is strong enough to actually hold that thin of an object during a fall - when at arms length it has to begin slipping through one's hands and begin to engage the cam on the device? I mean - you'd not only be holding the weight of the climber and the force of the fall, but also your own body weight. That's pretty damn strong for one arm. And, I still can't see that there would be enough force in a real fall to bust a knot. I've seen people get the skin of their hands or fingers pulled into the device during a fall and it didn't suck off their limb (heh, heh) or explode their hand.

I could be wrong, but...

[Andrew]

I'd have to see the videos. Until then, I'm going out on a limb and calling bullshit.

I see no way that in a real life fall that someone could stop a gri-gri from engaging by simply grabbing onto the ascending side of the rope. Firstly, who is strong enough to actually hold that thin of an object during a fall - when at arms length it has to begin slipping through one's hands and begin to engage the cam on the device? I mean - you'd not only be holding the weight of the climber and the force of the fall, but also your own body weight. That's pretty damn strong for one arm. And, I still can't see that there would be enough force in a real fall to bust a knot. I've seen people get the skin of their hands or fingers pulled into the device during a fall and it didn't suck off their limb (heh, heh) or explode their hand.

I could be wrong, but...

you are wrong. It doesn't take much to keep it from engaging and once the rope starts sliding through it doesn't want to catch. Its weird.

[Toad]

Well, I ain't been right since I got kicked by that mule.

Maybe you can answer this...if you can remember when the rope was allowed to slip freely through the gri-gri ... was the belay hand near the hand that was grabbing the climber's end of the rope, or was the belay end of the rope just laying on the ground? I'm just wondering if the angle of the rope as it exits the grigri has much to do with free running. Maybe the rope needs to be running at a strong downward angle to assist the cam into activating.

[pigsteak]

toad, that is a brilliant profile pic...love it!!!!

[THB]

I'd have to see the videos. Until then, I'm going out on a limb and calling bullshit.

I see no way that in a real life fall that someone could stop a gri-gri from engaging by simply grabbing onto the ascending side of the rope. Firstly, who is strong enough to actually hold that thin of an object during a fall - when at arms length it has to begin slipping through one's hands and begin to engage the cam on the device? I mean - you'd not only be holding the weight of the climber and the force of the fall, but also your own body weight. That's pretty damn strong for one arm. And, I still can't see that there would be enough force in a real fall to bust a knot. I've seen people get the skin of their hands or fingers pulled into the device during a fall and it didn't suck off their limb (heh, heh) or explode their hand.

I could be wrong, but...

you are wrong. It doesn't take much to keep it from engaging and once the rope starts sliding through it doesn't want to catch. Its weird.

finally... someone that knows what they are talking about...

anyway, i give up... if you don't believe me... fine... go ahead, do whatever you want, tie whatever knots you want, feed slack with your thumb blocking the cam of your device, whatever... i just thought my information would be for the good of the climbing community. if you want to call "bull-shit" then why don't you go do some testing of your own and get some of your own results instead of just invalidating my test results without doing any testing of your own...

oh, and by the way, no shit a slow-pull isn't realistic... but, it was the only machine that was available... if you can find a machine that does a pull that more closely simulates a climbing fall, then let me know...

p.s. - most of your cams and biners have a rating stamped on them... and i'm sure you believe the manufacturers claim of the strength of your gear... news-flash: that rating came about by using a machine that does a slow-pull test on the gear until failure.

[Toad]

Not invalidating. That's why I said seeing the videos would be nice. I'm not going to take much of anything on faith here. Just looking for answers.

I've used a gri-gri since they first came out. I've never, never, ever had anything go wrong. So, I'd just like to see your methods of testing.

But, if you don't want to ...

[krampus]

ultimately, I fully believe everything that THB has claimed, I just don't think its relevant for real life situations, reducing the force on the gris gris by pulling on the climber side can and does happen, shamis' method of letting go does work 99.999 percent of the time but your break hand works 100% of the time and therefore that should be the method that is taught to noobs, anything else is silly and encourages a culture of laziness and pain, your whole life can change in the blink of an eye, why risk it.