Guides at Military today

[Clevis Hitch]

If I am not mistaken this is what the LAC is for. The climbing management plan is to address all of these issues. It's not a matter of 20 people in one group or ten groups of two. The impact is the same and the crowd is over-crowded. Tis will be addressed by the CMP. I forsee military being completely closed to climbing or completely given over to unmitigated impact. I think the former has more of a chance that the latter. So... I said all of that to say this. If you've got a project or something yo want to climb at military and possibly left flank you should get it done this summer because I see closure in its future.

[Toad]

Can they close it down if people are still waiting in line?

[pigsteak]

yall need to climber harder, or develop routes. Problem solved.

love it.

[blueeyedclimber]

...but why should you deserve to climb there more than other people.

Deserve to climb there more than other people? No. Deserve a chance to work into the mix. Yes.
Problem is that members of a large group tend to form one big cohesive unit with little chance for
outsiders to get on a route, or routes, that the group has claimed as theirs for the day. Personally, I think
if they leave their rope unattended for even just a few minutes then it's fair game to pull it as long as you are
willing to put it back up for them.

So ask. It is unclear to me if any attempt was made to work into the climbs. I take kids climbing all summer. Now, granted, the places I go aren't exactly the Red River Gorge, but if any other party is there, then I try to be accommodating. The issue here, IMO, isn't large groups, but group behavior. It's easy to pick on large groups, but if any group is respectful and accommodating then more power to them.

Josh

[Climbingrocks]

So ask. It is unclear to me if any attempt was made to work into the climbs. I take kids climbing all summer. Now, granted, the places I go aren't exactly the Red River Gorge, but if any other party is there, then I try to be accommodating. The issue here, IMO, isn't large groups, but group behavior. It's easy to pick on large groups, but if any group is respectful and accommodating then more power to them.

Josh

Not all groups are like the one you are defending. Most are not

[blueeyedclimber]

So ask. It is unclear to me if any attempt was made to work into the climbs. I take kids climbing all summer. Now, granted, the places I go aren't exactly the Red River Gorge, but if any other party is there, then I try to be accommodating. The issue here, IMO, isn't large groups, but group behavior. It's easy to pick on large groups, but if any group is respectful and accommodating then more power to them.

Josh

Not all groups are like the one you are defending. Most are not

In which case, we should treat each group as a separate case and not make wild accusations and generalizations. Inconsiderate groups suck, but so do inconsiderate individuals.

Josh

[Clevis Hitch]

Nah, people suck...

[lena_chita]

...but why should you deserve to climb there more than other people.

Deserve to climb there more than other people? No. Deserve a chance to work into the mix. Yes.
Problem is that members of a large group tend to form one big cohesive unit with little chance for
outsiders to get on a route, or routes, that the group has claimed as theirs for the day. Personally, I think
if they leave their rope unattended for even just a few minutes then it's fair game to pull it as long as you are
willing to put it back up for them.

So ask. It is unclear to me if any attempt was made to work into the climbs. I take kids climbing all summer. Now, granted, the places I go aren't exactly the Red River Gorge, but if any other party is there, then I try to be accommodating. The issue here, IMO, isn't large groups, but group behavior. It's easy to pick on large groups, but if any group is respectful and accommodating then more power to them.

Josh

Not sure about this particular situation, but very often the large groups will say no when asked, because the attitude is, we got here first, and until all members of your group climb, the route is taken. I wouldn't have a problem with that sort of first-come, first-serve attitude, but all too often in this scenario there is a very leisurely pace that the group is keeping, and THAT's what gets everyone else irritated.

Don't forget, the reality of a large group is usually a big spread in climbing abilities and experience. There is a REASON why they can't break up into smaller groups -- usually because they are limited by a number of people capable of leading/lead-belaying and setting up ropes. Of the remaining people, some would be fairly competent at the grade on toprope, and some would have no business at all on climbs of that grade, but they all proceed to toprope with hanging every couple feet on every rope, just because the group has those ropes set up. So inevitably, there is a situation where some people climb faster, and some climb slower, yet they all want a turn on every rope that was set up, so there is a lot of down-time, but it's down-time of uncertain length. They don't necessarily know themselves exactly when Johnny would be able to climb this route #3, because Johnny is still belaying Danny on route #2, and it is taking Danny longer on it than Teddy took on route #3. So 5 min until Johnny gets on route #3 somehow becomes 15 minutes, and then Johnny needs to pee after belaying for 30 minutes, and so on, and meanwhile route #3 is sitting there empty, with rope hanging.

i

[clif]

Is this another rant after the fact on the internet, when NO attempt was made to resolve it at the cliff?
and not make wild accusations and generalizations.Josh

is it possible that large groups could be more aware of burden that is placed on other users and recognize that they could extend, as a courtesy, an offer to allow curious onlookers and passersby a chance on a route they have laid claim to for the day?

[bcombs]

Don't they do that in golf, letting smaller faster groups "play through". Not that I would compare golf to sport climbing. Golf is not a sport, its something else, not sure what, but not a sport.