Guides at Military today

[Eric Cox]

Just had a talk with the coaches. I figured if they were getting bashed here, they should know. They are not guiding on this trip. No diffrent than me painting a logo on my van and taking some friends on a road trip...

If you're getting paid to take a group of people climbing, you're commercially guiding. Big difference.

I didn't ask to their books, I'm just passing along info as it was shared to me. It seems however the issue here isn't people making money taking other people climbing, it's the huge impact that groups of rock climbers have on the crags. So sorry that you didn't get to enjoy your Sunday. I actually went climbing with some Euro's at Muir and had a great day! First time I have climbed there in over 3 years.

So I have to ask you, what are your positive suggestions to help fix this problem? Posting this thread was a good start. Maybe it's time this problem was addressed for good.
If I can get something from the RRGCC, FS, or anybody else in charge, I'll be MORE than happy to pass the word along to the groups that camp here at LOTA. I think something on offical FS or RRGCC letterhead might make more of an impact than something I would print off on my computer. This might not be the cure-all, but at least it's something and it might help a little.

[cliftongifford]

From the Forest Service Website
"Commercial Use or Activity: Any use or activity on National Forest System lands
(a) where an entry or participation fee is charged or (b) where the primary purpose
is the sale of a good or service and, in either case, regardless of whether the use or
activity is intended to produce a profit (36 CFR 251.51)"
and
"Guiding: Providing services or assistance (such as supervision, protection,
education, training, packing, touring, subsistence, transporting people, or
interpretation) for pecuniary remuneration or other gain to individuals or groups
on National Forest System lands. The term "guide" includes the holder's
employees and agents"

[shear]

Give it a rest.

Go to any crag on a sunny saturday in October and you'll experience the same thing. What's the difference? It was a busy day at the Military Wall.. Alert the presses! Get in line like everyone else. Turns out there is no other sport climbing mecca in this country with a larger amount of conservatively-bolted easy-moderate routes.

Does it suck? Of course it does...I hate crowds...but you were at the Military Wall man. Why are you so shocked?

[cliftongifford]

So I have to ask you, what are your positive suggestions to help fix this problem?

I guess this is the more important issue...
I believe that if people just followed the rules already on the books we wouldn't have this problem as often. Obviously you can't guide or have extremely large groups in the PMRP, Graining Fork, Torrent, or Muir Valley without permission. Guiding isn't permitted within the Clifty Wilderness area and has a group limit of 6. And you're required to apply and pay for a special use permit to use the rest of the DBNF. That cuts most large groups out of the picture. If a local guide service has to pay fees and go through the process, so should any other commercial interest.

[Eric Cox]

No truer words were ever spoken on here. If people followed the rules already in place, Dr. Bob wouldn't have to wade through human shit to enjoy his own back yard! That's something our mom's should have taught us as kids. I can't believe adults do such things.

Groups coming in from out of state might not know the rules. That's not an excuse to act like a jackass at the cliff, and from what I can gather, these kids were not. Get me info and I'll be happy to pass it along to the groups I come in contact with. Or maybe, does anyone have an e-mail address list of all the gyms that use the Red? Maybe an electronic message to them would help too. I can think of 2 gyms that hosted events for the RRGCC last fall and I believe one is going to host an event for Muir this year. This is Great and shows me that there are some out there who have a passion for the Red and want to help out. I truly believe that EVERYONE who uses the Red should help out somehow. I've spent more time building trails and bridges in the PMRP over the last year that I have spent climbing there ever. I don't have the answers, but I'll do what I can to help. The bottom line is these groups are here and I don't see an end in sight. Better WE come up with a solution now. Several winters ago I walked up to Military for the first time. I was blown away at the impact around the base of the cliff. Same result when I looked at the slab wall at Roadside a few weeks ago. We are loving the Red to death. ( include eric cox in that "we") I'm really glad I took up motorcycle riding. No drama, bullshit, or cry babies. Just fun....(except for the assholes who cut me off!)

[bcombs]

When I was a kid I used to get in trouble for pooping in the backyard all the time. Mom tried to teach me God help her... but alas.

[Clevis Hitch]

mamma tried to raise me right but I refused...

[pigsteak]

unless you ride a harley, it ain't really riding. see, there are the same rules on the bike as in climbing;)

[Eric Cox]

unless you ride a harley, it ain't really riding. see, there are the same rules on the bike as in climbing;)

Bikers don't ride Harleys, Bikers ride MILES!!
I'll take my antique Goldwing over any harley. any day.
HD=hardly driving!

[pigsteak]

lol Eric..I owned a Yamaha 650 Special back in college...so its been a few years for me.