captain static wrote:The preliminary read from the USFS is that a business named Metro Rock from MA does not have a Special Use Permit for guiding in Red River Gorge. They are going to check further to see if any inquiry was made by such a business about a Special Use Permit. If no inquiry was made then I will contact Metro Rock. I will also make a post on RC.com about guiding.
Large groups are a concern in relation to LAC because they have the potential to increase impacts beyong the Limits of Acceptable Change, triggering the need for management actions. Just like Bob, the USFS expects climbers to police themselves. Next time you see a large commercial group in RRG, ask who is in charge and then ask the person in charge if they have a Special Use Permit. (Note: college groups are not currently required to get a permit) If you are sure that it is a commercial group and they do not have a permit, ask them to leave or else you will contact the rangers.
There will be a section in the Climbing Management Plan on guiding. One possibility would be to develop a crag just for guided groups, kinda like they have groupp campgrounds.
I ask this because I don't know, and don't mean this arrogantly as it my appear. But who are you? And because of who you are what gives me the right to ask someone to leave? I ask because I, as I'm sure others are, am uniformed. And I think it's a good idea that if we as a collective group decide that we're going to do something (this case ask people to disperse) We understand the whole issue, and who says what is right/wrong and who has authority to take such actions. I hope that didn't come off arrogant, I am just hoping to be informed
Am I wrong to think that shits funny...
If you give a man a match, he'll be warm for a minute. If you set him on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life!
captain static wrote:The preliminary read from the USFS is that a business named Metro Rock from MA does not have a Special Use Permit for guiding in Red River Gorge. They are going to check further to see if any inquiry was made by such a business about a Special Use Permit. If no inquiry was made then I will contact Metro Rock. I will also make a post on RC.com about guiding.
Large groups are a concern in relation to LAC because they have the potential to increase impacts beyong the Limits of Acceptable Change, triggering the need for management actions. Just like Bob, the USFS expects climbers to police themselves. Next time you see a large commercial group in RRG, ask who is in charge and then ask the person in charge if they have a Special Use Permit. (Note: college groups are not currently required to get a permit) If you are sure that it is a commercial group and they do not have a permit, ask them to leave or else you will contact the rangers.
There will be a section in the Climbing Management Plan on guiding. One possibility would be to develop a crag just for guided groups, kinda like they have groupp campgrounds.
I ask this because I don't know, and don't mean this arrogantly as it my appear. But who are you? And because of who you are what gives me the right to ask someone to leave? I ask because I, as I'm sure others are, am uniformed. And I think it's a good idea that if we as a collective group decide that we're going to do something (this case ask people to disperse) We understand the whole issue, and who says what is right/wrong and who has authority to take such actions. I hope that didn't come off arrogant, I am just hoping to be informed
Am I wrong to think that shits funny...
I'm admittedly ignorant to who's who. But other than that is there a reason this is so funny?
I fell for the everyone-shut-up-and-ill-donate-money scheme. -Ray Ellington, guidebook gawd
My name is Sam Douglass and I love to pose for photo shoots holding on to a jug with only one hand (and no feet!) with my best friend Ian.
DHB wrote:Tried to google RockMetro and came back with nothing. Did you mean Metro Rock? Well.. maybe not. I can't find anything on their site about a trip to the Red. Anyway, are you sure it was a paid guide. How do you know five people from some gym didn't decide to make a trip down, and that group suddenly turned into 20 as more people hear about it and realized it would fit in nicely on Spring Break? If they had lines on 11s and 12s, then do they really need a guide (though you make it sounds like they may not have been 11 and 12 climbers)? If I load five people in my Jeep and make them pay for gas and buy me a pizza afterward, does that make me a paid guide?
Nothing better than getting paid in pizza.
it was MetroRock... sorry i got it backwards. MetroRock was imprinted on the side of 2 of the 3 vans from Massachusetts. Everyone appeared to be between the ages of 12-17, with only one adult leader (steve buck is his name) that i could see, there may have been more. On their website in a pdf. it states: "Climbing Trips – We are planning 2 trips to Red River Gorge, KY. These trips will coincide with the school breaks in Feb. and April. Details on costs and logistics to follow."
I'm pretty sure they're not busing the kids down here for free.
Curious... Did anyone ask if it was a guided tour? Was it possible that it was a youth team? Aren't there kids from TX that show up every year in vans from a gym, and also I think I remember a group from TN. I ran into a similar type group at Tectonic wall one year. They put up lines and camped there all day. But when we asked they went out of their way to let us climb on their draws, no waiting (unless someone was on the route). Nice kids enjoying climbing. Hmmm, and I don't recall any screaming, complaining, excuses, runaway dogs, unsafe belaying, spraying, or any of the other nonsense that shows up at most crags every weekend...
Pick myself up, stop lookin' back.
Grand Funk Railroad
Yeah, sounds like a youth team to me. And I'm sure the kids had to pay their way, but there is a difference between guiding and sharing the costs of travel, food, and lodging. Its a bit of a fine line in this case, but I would not really call this a guided trip. But with such a large group, it would have been nice if they at least talked to the forest service to make sure they were ligit.
rjackson wrote:Curious... Did anyone ask if it was a guided tour? Was it possible that it was a youth team? Aren't there kids from TX that show up every year in vans from a gym, and also I think I remember a group from TN. I ran into a similar type group at Tectonic wall one year. They put up lines and camped there all day. But when we asked they went out of their way to let us climb on their draws, no waiting (unless someone was on the route). Nice kids enjoying climbing. Hmmm, and I don't recall any screaming, complaining, excuses, runaway dogs, unsafe belaying, spraying, or any of the other nonsense that shows up at most crags every weekend...
It appears that may be exactly what it was. A gym's climbing team being guided at the RRG, by the coach from their gym. I'm pretty sure it still constitutes guiding and would require a permit. Regardless of the matter, if you're bringing a large group of people to the gorge you don't roll in 20 deep to any crag. I never said they weren't nice kids, much nicer than most people I've met from Boston. They were even good climbers and belayers, and seemed to be climbing safely. My issue is with the person who thinks it's okay to bring that many people to a crag, especially if that person is getting paid to do so.
I don't understand what the difference is when I show up a crag with 20 people that are from 3 groups with 3 large piles and 6 ropes hanging and they all know each other from Miguel's and college and the internet... and a single group of 20 with 1 big pile and 6 ropes hanging. The guided part aside, I don't see a lot of difference (except the kids are usually better behaved). If you don't like the crowd when you show up to the crag, pick another crag... If I show up at the movies and the line is too long for my liking, I pick another movie (or change my plans).
Pick myself up, stop lookin' back.
Grand Funk Railroad
The fact of the matter is that a big group is higher impact so they should be discouraged... it's really a mathematical issue. If everyone showed up in a group of 20 people vs. 3 or 4 that would be 5x the people at that particular crag, not to mention the parking issue. It's also harder to work into routes with a large group as they create a sort of "bloc" effect that discourages the sharing of routes with other groups. Ultimately it kind of shuts down the crag to other climbers if a massive group shows up; I've also noticed these groups can be less attentive at times to things like leaving trash behind when they pack up and leave, but this may be only in my observation.
