Who does it belong to?

[climb2core]

I may be a tactless douche. BUT, more people than me believe the same way as me BUT they don't want to get dumped on my the regular suspects. Even If I was the only one who said what I said it wouldn't make what I say any less true.

Joe, for a bright guy you have a lot to learn. There are ways to say things that will get your point across and be MORE effective in producing the results you want. Your solution to open a locked door would be to break it down, when maybe all you had to do would be ask for them to open it. But this too will be lost upon you. Enjoy your life of breaking doors down and making enemies.

[clif]

i think this spring has a lot of people pretty excited. it's been beautiful so far and i sure hope to be able to get on BMT soon. if i make it, what should i be on the lookout for?

[toad857]

there is a million miles of cliffline out there.

... on the Daniel Boone (which doesn't allow new development)
... or on private land (who wants to have 100 thankless visitors on their land every day with little or no support)

And even if there was another RRG worth of good rock, the droves of visitors don't come here to bolt, do trail work, etc.... they come here to climb classics on the beaten trail, buy a t-shirt from miguel's, and brag about it to their friends.

i know a number of folks on here are prolific developers, but the recent swell of climbers has dwarfed everything. my estimate? it would take 3 RRG's just to thin out the visitors to manageable levels.... and that doesn't include the increase for the future.

[Clevis Hitch]

Then Fucking close it. Just quit whinning about it. Goddamn! Why would you want to get on here and start this shit? Close it or Don't.

[pigsteak]

Close it or don't..are those really the only two options?

How about keep it open, but please police yourselves. there's a novel idea....

O wait, Dr. Bob already said that, but we got derailed by Clevis frothing at the mouth.

[ReachHigh]

From the perspective of the people renting the cabins its a perfect setup. Get access to an awesome climbing area that's not being over ran and a chance to have a quiet stay with out 100 cars jammed around your cabin. Torrent is a very small place and with the current limit, it still can feel full at times. Bob has done a lot and I can only say he has handled this better then I would have.

[toad857]

right. to be honest, i was surprised when they started letting climbers back in via the registration. i thought the cabin rental was a good compromise for such a bombtastic crag.

[727foxtree]

I think you make a good point here...

Joe's statement does have somethings worth considering. First, the land is Bob's... and that imparts a responsibility on Bob to manage his land as he sees fit. Try this for an analogy:

I own a prime parking lot downtown. It says private and no parking. However, I let people that pay me park there and my buddies can park there for free. Now 99% of the other drivers find other places to park downtown, but there are always a couple dicks each week that ignore my signs and sneak in and park on my lot. As the owner, I get pissed and take out a billboard saying, if you don't stop parking on my lot illegally I am going to turn the parking lot into a mud hole that no one will be able to park in, unless all you drivers police those people illegally parking. (In effect what Bob is doing by putting out this thread on this public forum)

My question to Bob... why should the 99% of climbers that come to the Red and DO NOT climb illegally OR legally care what happens on your property? In short, It is not there problem and they have no vested interest in trying to be part of the solution. Now if you are one of the few that rent a cabin to climb...you might care, but you are PAYING for the privilege to climb. However, it seems to me that the very select few that have unpaid for climbing privileges should and do care. They are the ones you should be asking to help you out, because they benefit from the bolts not being chopped. I would be willing to help out in a heart beat anyway I could if it meant an opportunity to climb more often than the 4 days I can afford to rent a cabin.

By the way, this is not an attack on Bob. Though I have never had the pleasure of meeting you, I have tremendous respect for what you have contributed to climbing at the Red. Send me a pm if you are looking for Stewards of Torrent Falls, and for few more opportunities to climb there I am your man.

Also wanted to add, you should have Torrent Falls removed from the online guidebook and future paper versions. The fact that it is in there implies some level of comparability and accessibility to the rest of the Red, which is simply not the case.

Ian

[toad857]

Just quit whinning about it.

really, though, you're the only one here who has whined. about what, i'm not sure..... so.. there's that....

... but the rest of us are having an important discussion (using the example of torrent) about a much larger issue. im glad bob brought it up. im glad when the webers bring it up. the only thing i'm not glad about is that a) the larger climbing public doesn't hear it and b) that it has to be brought up in the first place.

[bcombs]

+1 for removing it from the online guide and future books. There was a time when Torrent could be completely open access and not be overrun. Now we have moved beyond that (in terms of visitors to the Red). Sadly, I think we have also moved beyond a reservation list with such small availability. The visitors are too many for it to seem like anything other than a private crag. Which is probably what it should be. A private crag for Bob, friends and cabin renters.

I have heard more than one person say they have tried "multiple" times to score the reservation and failed. That being said, it looks like reservation is open now... go get it!!! http://www.torrentfallsclimbing.com/index.php#reg

I would say that I don't know what else Bob could have done to try to balance the expectations of climbers, renters and his own interest in his own property.