Lead belay question

[rhunt]

This is my biggest pet-peeve right now. I had to re-teach someone in the gym recently about it. Standing too far away from the way is a really bad idea. When the climber falls low he/she will rack their groin on the rope and second they will probably hit the belayer then the ground. You need to stand in a direct line under the first bolt but not directly under the climber. As a belayer you DO NOT need to see you climber make every move, you need to be ready to give a safe soft catch. Standing to far away from the has proven to be a contributing factor in recent belayer related climbing injuries.

No offense but the fact that you needed to ask this question points to the real BIG issue in climbing these days. There are way to many people out there climbing outside who have no idea what they are doing; they risk the lives of other people and the climbing access we worked hard to obtain!

As a climber, you get to tell your belayer how you want him or her to belay, if they won't obey then don't let them belay you and find another partner.

[JR]

I am the worst belay when it comes to standing directly under the first bolt.

Let's break it down.

Off the ground. I generally spot the climber to the first bolt(not directly under the first bolt). If stick clipped, I stand to the side, next to the wall, managing the rope so it doesn't get involved with the climbers hand or foot movements(not directly under the first bolt).

First hand full of bolts. I am relatively close to the wall but I am backing up to watch the climber(not directly under the first bolt). I like to see what is going on. Too me, it seems a little safer to see if the climber is blowing the third clip. Rather than be pasted to the wall watching the bottom of their feet.

After the fifth bolt or so I am still drifting backward to keep an angle on the climber that my neck can handle (This is where those fancy CU belay glasses might make my belaying safer. http://www.powernplay.com/pi1/index.html ). Sometimes the backing up just doesn't cut it and I turn away from the wall for a better vantage point. Think madness cave or Steven Kings Library situations (not directly under the first bolt).

HIgh up on the route, 60 to 70 feet. I start losing interest. I really can't see too clearly what is going on up there. The climber is pretty safe in my mind. I sort of flip styles at this point. It kinda turns into fishing at this point. Not really paying too close attention. Just waiting for a bite. Waiting for them to start struggling (that is the bobber moving in the fishing analogy). If they struggle. I get ready. Maybe take in a little slack. Watch or hear the falling climber and then try to be very light when the rope comes tight. A little jump if the climber is lighter than me. But either way I am well away from the wall. And I generally do get pulled to the wall. Sometimes with a heavy climber I get pull up the route a bit(not directly under the first bolt). Some might argue that this is not the softest catch. Maybe not. But I have been soft caught right into the ground by a very experienced belayer(15-20 years belaying). So personally, I put a premium on being able to see what is going on. And I feel like you cannot effectively see and anticipate standing up against the wall. When you can see what is going on you have plenty of time to do the things you need to do to give your best as a belayer. Granted there are breakages (CRUMBLIES!!!) that happen or sudden falls that are impossible to predict. In those instances, I may not be in the best position. But I feel like I am in a marginally less safe position(not directly under the first bolt).

I am guessing all the under the first bolt always, always, always folks will have beef. Maybe I am not the belayer for you. But you can belay me anytime Mr. I know the perfect belay guy.


Sooo in short, I am rarely directly under the first bolt.

This is my style for climbing steep Red River climbs. I am sure none of this would be very helpful to slab climbers. Where I am sure standing in exactly the same spot directly under the first bolt is the best way to go.

Cheers!

[the lurkist]

That is honest.

I think of a good belay as a counter weight on an elevator- a good dynamic decellerating catch. You have to be standing directly in the line of pull to do this well, so standing under the first bolt is necessary. Otherwise the friction of the rope running in an angle over the first draw carabiner disipates the force that would be pulling you up. The climber comes to a quick stop, and gets slammed.
case in point, Porter Jarrard last year fell off the top of the Madness, well above the cave, and the guy he met that morning at Miguels (which is a strong arguement to know your belayer and his skill well) stood back and and actually took another step back (according to witnesses) and slammed Porter into the cave- broke his wrist and could have killed him if he had hit differently.

[Handjamwich]

Get a new belayer, and to salvage the friendship your "buddy" can be your spotter..

[climb2core]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SqHvKXlLr4

Is this the Saxman on this site? This catch looks kind of really hard, curious where the belayer was standing...

Oh, if I ever looking for a partner, remind me not to ask Kevin (or JR...)

[tbwilsonky]

dude, kevin, like, um, you know, bout broke saxman's ankles/knees/face.

but at least he got the draw up.

[pigsteak]

Porter is just old...fragile bones break easily. Come on Lurk, you should know that.

[pigsteak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SqHvKXlLr4

Is this the Saxman on this site? This catch looks kind of really hard, curious where the belayer was standing...

Oh, if I ever looking for a partner, remind me not to ask Kevin (or JR...)

LMAO..it is our beloved Saxman...what a gumball....

[JR]

To the point about Porter J. and several accidents on Spank. These situations have been interesting me as of late. Because to me they sort of defy logic. At least in my head, if a climber is ten feet past the bolt on a super steep route it would be nearly impossible to get them back to the wall with any kind of belay. But after hearing about these large falls on steep terrain and inexplicably they are hitting the wall. I am just flat(no pun) wrong. But I will say that they keep happening on the same routes. I don't know how experienced the belayer was in the Porter fall. But I guessing that most of these accidents on Spank and in the Madness cave were belayed by climbers that have caught hundreds of harmless sport climbing falls in the same way. These specific situations required more vigilance than they deemed necessary. Why??? All that we(climber friends) have come up with is that sometimes when the route is so[/b] steep that the run is greater than the rise, so to speak, that the climber is in greater danger of hitting the wall than if the climber was on a 30 degree wall. Sort of counter intuitive. But it does explain the accidents on super steep routes with experienced belayers.

I am guessing that steep climbing will continue to be in vogue and we will continue to be made aware of these situations where a literal step backward might send your buddy smashing into the Madness cave.

[Frogger]

People like my belay partner and JR are confused about the mechanics of the situation. I need to find a way to explain why they must stand next to the wall, even when I am high on the route. Also, they should face sideways, instead of trying to look back.
Any suggestions, besides just making them fall, and slamming them into the wall? I would love a good video that demonstrates the difference.