Bolting question

[ynp1]

I was talking to a contractor and was talking to him about bolting routes.

If you got SS threaded rod and cut it to the right length and used epoxy (same as you use with the glue-ins) and placed the rod the same as you would the standard glue ins, and then placed the hanger and nut after the glue set... Is this cheaper? And would it be as safe?

The advantage that i see is that less people would lower threw a normal bolt hanger and even if the hanger did get f'ed up it would be easy to replace (just remove the bolt and replace hanger)

Just a thought... Is this cost effective or is it better just to buy the normal glue-ins?

Thanks for the imput in advance!

[heacocis]

This would work (as it does in construction applications), but I see a few significant problems with it for climbing. First, you still have the issue of the hanger loosening from the repeated loads being placed on it by falls. So, you would still have "spinners," which are completely eliminated with glue-ins. Second, before tightening the nut to hold the hanger on you would have to wait (several hours, depending on temperature) until the glue sets enough to keep the rod from spinning in the hole. This would basically mean the developer would have to go back to the route later and place the hangers. Third, my guess is that it wouldn't be all that much cheaper, especially after you include the cost of the hanger and nut. Half, or even three-eighths inch threaded stainless rod by itself is costly.
If the idea behind using threaded rod is to save wear on glue-ins from lowering, then the problem isn't with the hardware but with the people lowering through (any) fixed hardware. The solution is for developers to create appropriate anchor stations (with quicklinks for lowering/rappelling, for example), and for climbers to be educated on the relatively new glue-in bolts. I still hear people ask of the "pins" in the rock are strong enough.

[dustonian]

Looking forward to seeing your bolts Isaac. This glue-in + hanger + nut idea is interesting but it wouldn't save you any money, especially if you are buying SS hangers. The whole advantage of glue-ins is to have an all-SS system. It would be cheaper than 1/2" SS Powers bolts, but what isn't?

[ynp1]

Cool thanks.

Regarding the three problems listed... 1st you can always retighten the nut if it comes lose, no big deal.
2nd that does kind of suck to have to wait to send, but you have to do that with all glue ins.
3rd, if it cost more then why do it? You are right, I have not checked prices it was just an idea.

[DHB]

I'm no engineer, nor am I a bolter, but there may be a problem with this setup. With the all thread, the threads extend the entire length of the rod. I know that when hanging ducts, electrical conduit, etc. in construction applications, the all thread is glued into the concrete slab, but in those scenarios the rods aren't being subjected to any forces greater than the weight of whatever is hanging from them. In climbing, however, people would constantly be falling on said threaded rods, so my worry would be that the steel of the threads would somehow separate from the cement, and the bolt would then be free to, essentially, unscrew itself from the threaded hole. With most glue-ins, there are grooves that run horizontally around the bolt shaft to "grip" the glue, but the corkscrew effect on the all thread may lead to bolt loosening.

Anyone with more expertise see any validity in this?

[Andrew]

This would work fine, but compared to other solutions it is not very cost effective, and not nearly as convenient.

[the lurkist]

I have done it. Anchors on Convicted, on Loosen up, Fuzzy... Rick Weber pull tested these and they failed not as high as the Titt bolts, but I believe they failed much higher that Rawl 5 piece. What I did was buy a long piece of SS all thread ( 6 foot) and cut it to 6 in pieces and beveled the ends. Much cheaper. Glue and nozzles are fixed cost but other wise much cheaper and for climbing applications over kill in strength.
Lock tight thread locker stops any nut looseing.
This, to me, has always been the most cost efficient solution for SS glue ins in the red. There is a method to reuse the existing holes, too.

[ynp1]

Lurkist.. Cool thanks for the imput. The way you are talking about is exactly what I was thinking of doing. Go to a place like quick set and buy a long rod and cut it myself. How deep do you drill the hole? And what size hole do you drill compaired to the rod size? Do you want it to be a tight fit or does the glue need room fill the hole completely?

I also agree that it is a good way to replace ole bolts by pulling the old bolt and using the same hole. I hate when there are a lot of extra holes in the rock. Just kind of looks shitty.

[heacocis]

There are many things that you could stick in the rock and probably be okay with compared to the forces generated in most climbing scenarios. But why not use the proper equipment? Even if the cost with threaded rod (or any other "non-traditional" idea) was lower, why not use the best hardware available?

[the lurkist]

I agree with heacocis. If the idea is to do the life time fix for routes, why not pull the stops and use the best thing. Rick Weber went to a lot of trouble to sort out what the best thing is. I would ask him or Kipp what the concensus is.
That said, I think (and please correct me if I am way off) the all thread are pretty damn good. I think they failed at higher force than one of the forged Petzl ring anchors.
to answer yose's question, you drill an over sized hole. 1/32 on either side of the 1/2 in all thread for tolerance. So the hole has to be 1/16 in greater in diameter than the 1/2 in bolt diameter- 9/16 in diameter hole.
I always planned on extracting out old bolts, retapping the hole and then setting the all thread. To retro fit undertow routes, for example, you would still need hooks or rb's.
Kipp and Rick have way more experience than anyone around here that I know of.