Iniquity vs. Cell Block Six

[aburgoon]

Sounds like the grade of 5.12 fits pretty well.

the abcd system is really goofy. Someone decided that breaking up a number grade into thirds (-/+) wasn't precise enough, so they made it into quarters. Can anyone really feel the difference of 4 levels of difficulty in 5.12? I can't.

So you could handle 12-,12,12+ but couldn't wrap your head around abcd. Maybe you are right, that is why we are arguing the difference between 12b and 12c which according to you would just be 5.12.

That is all fine and good but I have a feeling we would spend most of our time arguing whether Hoofmaker is a 12+ or 13-.

12+ or 13- conveys almost the same information.

A scale with greater range tends to mellow out personal fallibility.

[Shamis]

For me the start of iniquity feels v5. If you're skinny and small sharp holds don't destroy you, then I'd say maybe v4, I think v3 is pushing it unless there is a much easier way of doing it that I haven't seen. I onsight v3 95% of the time, but I've only stuck the moves on iniqutiy's start twice out of about 20 tries. I send v5's more easily than that start...but that's typically because they are overhanging enough to actually have holds big enough for my porky fingers.

[JR]

I can name countless V5's that I think are easier, in the Southeast no less.

Reasonable. My bet is these v5's that felt easier for you had big reaches between positive holds...

I got into this same debate with Kipp and Ray about Malice, which I think is solid 12D...

You may be right. Jury is still out...the votes are split right now. But as always, if I am unsure I go for the lower grade.

I think people when they are on the fence usually just vote the current grade, especially when it's already lined up and all you have to do is click vote rather than changing the grade.

Green you are smarter than this half-assed argument. You don't have to vote!! People aren't accidentally voting.

I often find myself not agreeing when discussing the middle bouldering grades (say 4-6) with you, Andrew, or Odub since you all often train by bouldering and/or boulder V10, whereas I often train on a rope.

Granted strength does trump most things in bouldering. But if you find yourself disagreeing with bouldering grades in this range consistently I would look into it if I where you.

Freakin Deacon does have a few hard moves, but you can stick both of your entire legs into the horizontal right before the crux and it makes the route miles easier.

Being fully rested doesn't change the fact that the crux on Freakin Deacon might be harder than the start to Iniquity. (Yes, I did the same bat hang)

[JR]

12+ or 13- conveys almost the same information.

A scale with greater range tends to mellow out personal fallibility.

I agree with the first part.

I also agree with the second part with one caveat. The word mellow. Mellowing out...Hmm... Here is the thing. I am not going to get mellow about grades. Green3 is not going to mellow out about grades. And regardless if you agree with the abcd thing or not, you are not going to get worked up about it. Right? So where does that leave us? My guess is that the grades of new routes will continue to be discussed and you will continue to scratch your head as to why people bother.

Am I close?

[512OW]

you are doing the crux wrong, I have watched a lot of people try the crux of iniquity and they are definitely making it harder than it needs to be.

I'll keep that in mind. I'd like this magic beta in a month or two. If it involves reaching I'm going to punch you in the knee caps.

The magic beta is..... learn to use your feet on less than jugs! Something that seems to be a challenge for the RRG climber...

[512OW]

I have had maybe 12 RRG climbers tell me that they fervently agree.

Asking RRG climbers to grade anything that isn't steep and juggy usually isn't a good idea. Just sayin.

[bcombs]

For me the feet aren't the problem. It's being scared to fall back down onto the wobbly pile of cheaters.

[toad857]

let's find a 'fuzzy' solution

[Green3]

let's find a 'fuzzy' solution

We could go New River Gorge style and call it 12b/c, but I guess the slash grade is a whole different debate.

Reasonable. My bet is these v5's that felt easier for you had big reaches between positive holds...

Good point. The way I should have phrased it is that I struggle to think of any V4 that is more difficult than the start of Iniquity. Can't think of one, even slabby, technical ones.

Green you are smarter than this half-assed argument. You don't have to vote!! People aren't accidentally voting.

Never said you have to vote or are accidentally voting. I said that people on the fence about grades just click the vote button since it's already lined up. Or that people with no real opinion on the matter just click the vote button without thinking about what it's graded. Not a half assed argument, I think it's a logical conclusion to having the existing grade already suggested. Any self-respecting pollster/statistician would agree.

Granted strength does trump most things in bouldering. But if you find yourself disagreeing with bouldering grades in this range consistently I would look into it if I where you.

I agree with plenty of people on these grades, just not the V10 boulderer on how much finger strength it takes to get through a V4.

Being fully rested doesn't change the fact that the crux on Freakin Deacon might be harder than the start to Iniquity. (Yes, I did the same bat hang)

You're not fully rested. You still have to hang on and it is taxing on the core. I only mentioned this since it's possible the previous climber didn't take this rest. Also, no rest is better than the 30-45 minute rest you take on the ground before starting Iniquity, so even if it is a good rest, you are still more tired than starting from the ground, which will make the moves feel harder than they are. This can even apply to a no-hands where you don't actually take more than a 5-10 minute breather. (Though I've seen some take longer.) But I think even being in the middle of Freakin Deacon, with pump factored in, that the crux isn't harder than Iniquity off the ground.

Good times JR, love the bullet point breakdown. We will have to argue over a beer in the Spring.

[Green3]

You may be right. Jury is still out...the votes are split right now. But as always, if I am unsure I go for the lower grade.

I find this extremely interesting. Why, exactly? Would you say that even if the grade is really close, that being considered a sandbagger is better than a fluffer (connotations noted)?

I have a hunch this notion drives most people on the fence about a grade. They think it the safer decision, for whatever reason.