Jesus H

[Brentucky]

I take no offense to people using their brains and believing whatever they come to think is true. I know plenty of super smart people on both sides of the isle. Without proof I will never believe, and faith alone is something my own brain will likely never use as an absolute, and I couldn't even imagine a "proof" that would make me believe. Heck, even if Jesus were to come down on that cloud I still might have a moment where I was like, "Yeah frikking right, this is just some advanced alien who has been watching us and learned our ways and knows we are brainwashed to believe this very thing will happen; holy shit, this frikking alien is probably about to zap me!"

Don't get me wrong though, I still say the occasional prayer to the higher power I will never fully believe in, at least not in this world, and if that higher power is up there and actually does care one way or the other about us then I console myself by telling myself that surely he is wise enough not to expect me to believe in anything I consider foolish.

[rhunt]

Whatahutch - so it seems we are at opposite sides of our human growth and perspective on life. The message of Jesus is at the heart of it all yet its not exclusive to christianity, it's common to most world religions. I think people are resistant to religion because of all the heaven and hell dogma. Eliminate heaven and hell and just talk about being good to each other and you got a great religion/theology. Sorta why I think the Buddhists have it mostly figured out.

For me, the biggest thing I have a hard time with is biblical scripture and the idea of it being absolute and the written/inspired word of God. That is where all the wars come from, where all the emotional, spiritual and physical abuse comes from. If the average bible believing christain really knew the facts about how the bible came together, things would be different. If only people would read the bible as the non-literal text that was written only for religious leaders as a guide to how to lead their flock. If people would only see it as the ancients people's experience of their world and their god - not something literal and/or relevant to today, things might be different.

Back to the hateful people who protest in the name of their god...check out this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZPsTM-4 ... r_embedded

[whatahutch]

Back to the hateful people who protest in the name of their god...check out this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZPsTM-4 ... r_embedded

Ohh, yeah that is where this started isn't it.
I really do feel sorry for those people in his church. They don't have a bit of love in their hearts, and their mouths prove it.
I did laugh too, but mostly felt sorry for them.

[whatahutch]

Rhunt, I have been wondering for weeks what I was going to use as my avatar. I decided to go with my old jail photo.

Actually it is an old school id photo from about 8 years ago, however I do have a couple of those jail photos out there somewhere.
(Does anyone know how to pull up that sort of file off the web)?

[ahab]

that you, jesus?

[rhunt]

Ha! Does this mean I need to find a clean-cut photo of my churhy days... I'll see what I can come up with.

[ynot]

I think it's a bit like watching the news. You only see the people screwing it up. You don't see the solid christians.They live a simple life and take no credit for thier generosity. They lead by good example It's like everything else, a few radicals messing it up for every one. You have to look a lot deeper for the good.

[pigsteak]

same with the liberals jesse...most are good folk, but the fringe is scary.

[dustonian]

Extremists are scary at either end....religious or political. Unfortunately, conscientious progressives that are in fact moderate or even right of center from a historical perpective are now erroneously branded as "socialist liberals" by the right wing. And in fitting with one of their favorite targets for budget cuts (aka. military appropriations/tax cuts for the wealthy)--public education, a large % of the unwitting public falls for this. Aside from religious-abortion issues, it will forever mystify me why lower-middle class folks vote conservative. It's like taking their little slice of the GDP and gift-wrapping it for the wealthiest 5%. Given our culture of selfishness, maybe in the back of their minds they think they'll be rich someday too?

[Climbingrocks]

People are going to believe whatever they want no matter what. It comes down to whether there is a convincing argument or not.
Those I have spoken with over the years seem to have a similar story:
1. When the age is reached to seriously consider religion and god, the mind rejects it for whatever reason

2. You start to think that there is something you are missing, so you ask questions and get to know the bible. You read and study it the best you can but nothing really convinces you.

3. Unfortunately most of the bible sounds untrue...really really untrue. Jonah either lived in that whale or he didn't. God created the world in six days or he didn't. So you go to people smarter than you and your friends. You start asking preachers questions. These are people that have been interpreting the bible and other religious ideas for a long time. They should have some insight or wisdom on the confusing and troubling parts. When you approach those that should be experts with a wide open mind, asking simple questions that you hoped would have been answered in the last thousand years, only to leave still empty handed. This is usually the biggest chunk of time.

4. Next you look up the academic religious scholars. People that really know the history. People that will admit the historical inaccuracies of the bible and other religious texts. People that willingly point out the additions and subtractions over the years. People that will write articles concluding that the whole book of Exodus probably didn't happen (I guess 2000 years is the time limit for searching desert of Sinai for some indications that 100,000 people wondered there for 40 or so years). So those people are really not helpful to curb your skepticism.

5. At some point in your life you discover the fields of psychology, sociology, neurology, and culture. NONE of this is helpful!! These subjects only illuminate how religion could be a natural bi-product of humanity.

6. Now you are pushing 5-10 years worth of exploration into a subject that most people give into without any question (not everyone). You start to think the obvious thought, what if there really is nothing to it? What if there really is no such thing as a soul, heaven, god, devil, hell? What if we really are just mammals? What if we really are just the product of evolution? What if our advanced brain, combined with the recognition of our own death, combined with our nak for causal determinism has created all of this? What if it really is up to us to decide the best ways for the world to flourish. Maybe there is no one watching?

7. This new idea sounds so beautifully true and simple

8. Continue your search for something you may have missed, but having a hard time forgetting that "faith" seems to be the only reason to assume that god exist.

The abandonment of faith does not come easy. Not as easy as accepting it.