Ambulance at RS sat night.

[rhunt]

ok then just take out strong, is that a better solution?

[KD]

I think they both sound like good solutions - responsible climbing is what we should be all about and being strong is a good thing too.

[DriskellHR]

I swear it seems like just yesterday seeing a ambulance anywhere near a climbing crag was unusual. It scares me this is a common thig these days.

[dustonian]

You know something is wrong when BASE jumping has become statistically safer than clipping bolts in the Red.

[Rotarypwr345704]

That's because they are less people doing BASE jumping.

[tbwilsonky]

I think they both sound like good solutions - responsible climbing is what we should be all about and being strong is a good thing too.

you missed my point. 'responsible climbing' is not a solution. it is the effect of a solution (or a series of solutions).

there are only two possible solutions to climbing mishaps: 1) good mentorship; people showing people how not to suck rather than simply saying "sucking is wrong". 2) make climbing safer.

the obvious problem with 'de-risking' climbing is it increases the amount of pressure placed on gear (which will eventually fail) rather than putting it on the backs of individual climbers. i'm all for fixed draws on overhung sport routes, but in the end this is a band-aid rather than a stitch. of course, mentorship has its own problems. most obviously there are no formal educational system for climbing safety (think hunting licenses), and in many cases people (especially young people) often tend to equate climbing strength with climbing knowledge. so what you get is the blind leading the blind (1, 2, 3, TRUST FALL!!!!).

fortunately sport climbing safety is very straightforward. it's not like some secret society black magic stuff that can only be transferred through hooded chants and goat crucifixions. so we have that going for us. the real question is how can we effectively teach this stuff? how and where can we create a culture of safety?

gyms? climbing media? crag policing?

i have more to say but this is already too long.

[KD]

but isnt good mentorship and helping to make safety a responsible thing to do> Isnt responsibility kind of like the ability to respond- ya know? i think got ya - i think. The hood and secret ceremony stuff would be weird though - kind of like the cousin who "wants to show you something..." adding more gear isn't very responsible though - in fact its the opposite - i think less gear is the key. instead of bolting everything in sight maybe go back a decade or so and get out the stoppers and hexes and the cams. It would force people to shell out a little commitment money and reduce the amount of ...limit the risk for me types - i think.

[tbwilsonky]

yeah. responsibility is good. but based on recent trends it appears that novice climbers need to be 'responsibilitized' despite how obviously dangerous climbing is. this can take the shape of media, training, policing, or we can trick people into thinking safety is cool. i don't care how. i just don't want climbing to enter into a serious political conversation; especially at a time when knee-jerk prohibition offers an expedient way to make good with some public policy (for instance, a 'pro-safety political record'). in other words, i think safety is ultimately an access issue and should be treated as such in terms of both scale and intensity.

at a more local level, we (myself included) need to be more vigilant in policing dangerous habits. i've watched heinous gri-gri camping and said nothing more times than i'd like to count. mostly because i don't want to argue with some dude and ruin my day. i've not seen someone dropped as a result of my negligence, but i can't help but think i'm part of the problem (hi, i am).

the most realistic fix is everyone start being hyper-dicks when it comes to safety so in a few years people are bitching in forums about how "the Red used to be awesome, but now it's like a police state". all it takes is a few years of that and then people will police themselves. turn the Red into a panopticon.

just thinking aloud.
t

[neuroshock]

I've an idea, though the brunt of the work would have to be done by select few. I've no idea on how financing could work.

As many climbing videos as there are out there, I think one could be produced [by the few. e.g., Spencer, BigUP] that takes high profile climbers (I say that only because the masses/fanboys would seem more apt to listen and take heed) and interview them about injuries they've had or encountered over the years. I think films have benefited greatly by showing failed attempts as well as redpoints but they rarely cover injury or grave mistakes. A video of "mistakes made," so to speak, or a telling of stories of people they've known but are no longer with us.

I know Sharma touched on it a little in that video of Mallorca when he mentions collapsed lungs from botched DWS. This past month was a missed opportunity to get access to "the big names" in the setting of the Red.

Have a film like this go around with the Reel Rock Tour or some other means of widespread distribution that will get attendance. Though it's a safe activity when the educated make sound decisions based on their experience and judgment, there are far too many that have come to think of climbing as a safe activity while foregoing the education, without the experience, and not exercising judgment. We all know that the latter will cause problems for all of us down the road; let's rattle their mindset.

-Mike

[Silk]

there are only two possible solutions to climbing mishaps: 1) good mentorship; people showing people how not to suck rather than simply saying "sucking is wrong". 2) make climbing safer.

the obvious problem with 'de-risking' climbing is it increases the amount of pressure placed on gear (which will eventually fail) rather than putting it on the backs of individual climbers. i'm all for fixed draws on overhung sport routes, but in the end this is a band-aid rather than a stitch. of course, mentorship has its own problems. most obviously there are no formal educational system for climbing safety (think hunting licenses), and in many cases people (especially young people) often tend to equate climbing strength with climbing knowledge. so what you get is the blind leading the blind (1, 2, 3, TRUST FALL!!!!).

Well said. to speak to your later post, I have started "saying stuff" regarding bad practices on the belay because I've witnessed several near misses and close calls where I didn't (kinda)...like literally screaming "lock him off! lock him off!" at someone who made the save 10' feet from a 50' grounder---I should have stepped in way before on that one, I could practically visualize it before it happened...

ya, even if it ruins my day, something like "eternal vigilance is the price of freedom" seems somewhat minor on the grand scale.