I gotta spray...

[caribe]

I deeply appreciated the narrative, cross between the Urban Climber and Belayer in the Rye.

[Crankmas]

excellent

[Rollo]

best post ever outta you clevis! right on!!! ....now don't post again in this thread so as not to ruin it.

[climb2core]

So, pulling a bit of a "Clevis" on you all... what if he had decked and died? Just seems hypocritical that everyone applauds this while by a mere chance of fate it appears this was not yet another post about "Yet another climbing accident in the Red". I love a good epic climbing story as much as the next guy, but just wondering where the line should be drawn between an epic adventure and stupidity? Also, not implying this FA was... I wasn't there, I don't know the rock, or the climber. Just food for thought.

[dustonian]

The big difference is: Ground-up adventure trad climbing is by its nature a calculated risk, and the climber is knowingly taking risk unto himself and accepting whatever consequences may arise. By contrast, getting hurt while sport climbing because you rapped off your rope, miscommunicated something basic, let the rope run behind your leg without wearing a helmet, or chose to trust a belayer who is incompetent, distracted, whatever is just another dumb accident that should never have happened in the first place. It is a result of gross incompetence rather than an acceptance of known objective hazards and personal boldness. Boldness is something historically respected in climbing; incompetence is not. The point is, a trad climber should clearly understand the risks during a runout, and know not to fall at the wrong time (granted, whether or not this was true in this case is unclear in Joe's scintillating narrative).

[climb2core]

Dustonion, I get what you are saying... but consider this:

"the climber is knowingly taking risk unto himself and accepting whatever consequences may arise".
Ultimately this is true for any form of climbing, be it trad or sport. It doesn't matter whether you rapped of the end of your rope or a hold broke 20 ft. above the last piece of pro. Climbing is always a choice, as is the risk associated with it- trad or sport.

"getting hurt while sport climbing because you rapped off your rope, miscommunicated something basic, or chose to trust a belayer who is incompetent, distracted, whatever is just another dumb accident that should never have happened in the first place. It is a result of gross incompetence rather than an acceptance of known objective hazards and personal boldness."
The end result is the same. The person gets hurt or dies. How is one outcome more acceptable than the other? I choose my belay partners very carefully, but I also accept that people are human, fallible, and shit can go wrong despite the best efforts. I agree it seems "more bold" to be climbing some undone route, but I think you could argue even "more stupid" At least the guy that raps of the end of his rope or falls from a bad belay was not raising the level of risk intentionally. This story ends well... so he is "bold". If he fell, trust me the word "bold" would replaced by "dumb-ass".

Ask an average Joe (no Joe pun intended) non-climber... which accident is more dumb and I am pretty sure most people will say "They are both idiots for leaving the perfectly good ground" Like we both said, we have no idea about what the situation was really like during the FA. But from Joe's (highly entertaining) narrative, it sounds like is was a coin toss if he was going walk or be carried out.

[dustonian]

sure, but I'm talking from a climber's perspective. They are just two different animals: like alpinism, real (ground-up) trad climbing is by nature full of risk, uncontrollable objective hazards, and personal commitment/responsibility. Sport climbing by contrast is about athleticism and beautiful gymnastic movement, and if bolted well most of the risk is engineered out and under the climber's control (given a good belayer & well-maintained equipment). Sure the end result may look the same, but you asked what the difference is, and in climbing style and process are everything.

[Clevis Hitch]

Jordan said its a 5.8+ but I think its in the tens.

[krampus]

stupid crazy gets the heart rate pumpin so the soul can feel alive for a moment. just plain stupid has no real benefit, weather its measurable or not