Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Problem

[jenbongo]

How much should I donate?
As much as I can?
As much as it's worth to me?
As much as my friend donated?
The cost of equipping a route?
My share?
Total maintenance expenses/number of climbers?
Total expenses/number of people who actually donate?
Estimated cost per climb? . . . per time lowered off of anchors? . . . per fall on pre-hung draws? . . . per drive into Muir Valley? . . . per year for payment on PMRP? . . . per day?
People could use any of these questions to decide on an amount, but I don't know the answer to most of these questions, and I suspect most people who donate little or nothing don't know either. If anyone can enlighten us a little, that might also help (along with getting the word out to donate in general) to encourage a lot of people to donate more or do more trail days. (BTW, how much is a trail day worth?) And I'm sure the answers are different for the PMRP, Muir, the steel draws fund, etc.

[jayh]

In all seriousness the overuse problem would diminish drastically if all bolts on climbs under 5.12 were stripped and people had to provide their own protection once again. This form (traditional, natural protection) was used successfully for a long time until the Bolt-a-thon and the rise of gym climbers in the Red. Make them provide their own pro and the college-type know-it-all hippies will go back to their gyms with their joints, guitars, bongos, Westies, Rusted Root cd's and their poop. It is probably the ultimate course as far as the Feds go assuming the usage of resources continues to climb at the current rate and with all the recent accidents and fatalities, it is probably for the best anyway. The crowds would either climb harder and smarter or tape up for the traditional way. In either case, this would thin things out a lot and give nature a chance to recover as well.

KD, when did you start climbing and what was your introduction to the Red?

I'm just now getting outside, and dont feel like 5.12 is a grade I'm ready to take on when I'm outside but I still want to get there. Reading through the guidebook there are all kinds of 4 star routes below 5.12 that have been bolted since 1991. Is this the big bolt-a-thon you talk about?

The only fatalities I found by searching this board involved experienced climbers, one was a rigging failure and the other was a ground fall on 5.12 that was said to be withing the climbers ability.

The way I see it, stripping the routes of 5.12 or lower will only ensure that when an idiot ties in through their leg loop, they'll be hopping on a 5.12 and not a 5.9...

[DriskellHR]

looks like you got anotherone KD

[KD]

In all seriousness the overuse problem would diminish drastically if all bolts on climbs under 5.12 were stripped and people had to provide their own protection once again. This form (traditional, natural protection) was used successfully for a long time until the Bolt-a-thon and the rise of gym climbers in the Red. Make them provide their own pro and the college-type know-it-all hippies will go back to their gyms with their joints, guitars, bongos, Westies, Rusted Root cd's and their poop. It is probably the ultimate course as far as the Feds go assuming the usage of resources continues to climb at the current rate and with all the recent accidents and fatalities, it is probably for the best anyway. The crowds would either climb harder and smarter or tape up for the traditional way. In either case, this would thin things out a lot and give nature a chance to recover as well.

KD, when did you start climbing and what was your introduction to the Red?

I'm just now getting outside, and dont feel like 5.12 is a grade I'm ready to take on when I'm outside but I still want to get there. Reading through the guidebook there are all kinds of 4 star routes below 5.12 that have been bolted since 1991. Is this the big bolt-a-thon you talk about?

The only fatalities I found by searching this board involved experienced climbers, one was a rigging failure and the other was a ground fall on 5.12 that was said to be withing the climbers ability.

The way I see it, stripping the routes of 5.12 or lower will only ensure that when an idiot ties in through their leg loop, they'll be hopping on a 5.12 and not a 5.9...

There is plenty of really cool things to climb without bolts in the Red. The Bolt-a-thon is when we skyrocketed from 500 or so routes to god knows how many now ...is it 2000 yet? We are grid bolting almost in some places. That brings crowds and crowds poop. I am saying that going retro back to traditional lines would get the crowd factor reduced greatly while requiring responsible climbing because you'd have to place and fall on your own gear. Same climbing, same grades, same coolness factor, just on your own gear that you placed.

[KD]

looks like you got anotherone KD

hmmmm do you think I should stick with the "jus kidding" scenerio?

[rhunt]

KD - I like what you are getting at. If they bolt it, they will come....and in masses they did! Your solution, although sadly unrealistic, would probably fix the problem. We probably should start a new thread...money and trail days won't fix this problem.

[pigsteak]

amazing how old and crotchety people get when they quit climbing. yes, talking to both of you.

[rhunt]

What ever piggie - I will be down this weekend to snake all your red tag routes.

[dollyjn]

If all would pitch in one thing each time you visit or use the land in any way, whether it be cleaning up around you, keeping up your own trash, paying a donation (best), providing some stewardship, anything as often as you visit. Pride and Respect in the land we have as a privilege to use warrants acknowledgement. So pitch in often, and ANYWHERE you go in the Red River Gorge area. We love our home!

[Clevis Hitch]

There is an estimated 3500 miles of climbable cliffline in eastern Kentucky alone. The answer is diversification. The answer is more bolts and better education. How about some "rock stars" giving an "assembly" in high schools with a climbing wall and video presentation. All of the bolting efforts have been concentrated in a really small area. What really needs to happen is finish the stalled LAC process and get the N.F. and the CC on the same page

$.02-joe