Financial Support for Climbing from Climbers: The Problem

[DriskellHR]

I really like the "safty tour" talks. This is somthing that needs discussing. I will be sure to bring it to the RRGCC meeting if no one else does.

This is a great discussion by the way. Keep the good ideas coming.

On a side note I would LOVE to purchase some wildlife cameras to chatch the fecal bandits in the act. Sadly my wife has put a cap on my spending these days.
However this is NOT a good way to spend CC money. Anyone want to chip in on one and see if it works? Its kinda a long shot but, it would be friggin great to post their pics on here.

[mike_a_lafontaine]

My take, for what it's worth (maximum retail value $0.02).

I am not a climber, I am simply someone who has way too many hobbies and climbing is one of them. I first went climbing in 1991, didn't start climbing regularly until around '94 when I moved to Kentucky, even then, I was not dedicated to climbing because I had a mountain bike, a road bike, a kayak, and more backpacking gear than any one man should have. Last year I started climbing again after going nearly 10 years of only climbing once every other year or so at the most. Even so, I might climb perhaps once a month, because I still have a mountain bike, a road bike, a kayak, and more backpacking gear than any one man should have, and those toys get lonely too. I have done more trail days/volunteer days this year than I have climbing trips. The short version: long gaps between climbing trips allow me to see stark differences that appear as gradual, perhaps unnoticed, changes to those of you who are "real" climbers.

It's not simply the NUMBER of people that is different from 20 years ago, it's the TYPE of people who are climbing compared to 20 years ago. When I started climbing it was because I was an outdoors-oriented person and climbing was simply one more thing I could do outdoors. I had already had years of backpacking experience, which is what introduced me to the outdoors and taught me how to behave in the outdoors. In the early 90's, most of my friends who started climbing with me were pretty much the same. None of us limited climbing to our outdoor palate. The vast majority of the people we would meet at the Red were the same way. Today when I go climbing, there are a lot of people who would never be outside if they didn't come climbing. The vast majority seem to lack that appreciation of the outdoors in general. Sure, they have their nice Mountain Hardware tents and Kelty backpacks, but how many actually take them out for a real spin out into true backcountry? There is a large scale lack of respect for the outdoors, other people's property and other people's opinion. That cannot be financed away.

Rick and Liz are two of the most gracious people I know. You would be hard pressed to find someone more warm and welcoming than Liz. And yet, people continue to treat Muir Valley like a dumping ground. Someone actually wrote on "Methane Rising" with sharpie to report a spinning bolt! Seriously? They have a billion and one ways to contact them to report problems and you write with permanent marker directly on the rock? On Bruise Brothers, no less, which means likely there were 150 people standing around watching them do that! And it didn't occur to anyone to say "Hey, what the hell are you doing?"

I hope the Weber's don't close access to Muir (for one, because my climbing skill set is such that it is the only place with such a wide variety of climbs that I am capable of climbing) but who could blame them if they do? Same goes for everywhere else there is public land on which people climb. Who could blame the higher-ups if they close it to climbing? It used to be that climbers were among the most considerate user groups in the Red, and probably the most safety conscious. Now, not so much.

[rhunt]

dustonian - I too have been climbing at the Red since 1995, we probably know each other if maybe only by face. I took no offense, I learned years ago not get offended from post on this board. Yet thank you for that sincere apology. What I do get emotionally wrapped up in is my love for the Red River Gorge and its pains me to read about actions from newbie climbers that i believe endangers future access to the climbing I love.

*** I want to emphasize that I am in no eay trying to persuade people from donation to either MV or the RRGCC.***

I am just trying to point out that along with donations and trail days, a focus needs to be made on educating the new masses/generation about responsible climbing. If it that means less time working on trails and maybe a little less money spent in your usually donation then so be it.

Mack5 - thanks for speaking up for college kids, it is a bit of a generalization. For me its a red flag that we even need to talk to people at the cliff about Weber's or the RRGCC, PMRP, etc. If new climbers are not taking the time to learn about the areas they are climbing at, that is really sad. And so in some ways they have earned the "slamming it down their throats" educating they may be getting at the cliff.

Pigsteak - I am not so sure access is secure anywhere. Yes we own and so they can't close it but it sure could get the restrictions you are suggesting and more. For example, right now the DBNF probably sees the bigger picture of hikers dropping off cliffs to their deaths every year and so our new trend in bi-monthly accidents isn't on their radar...yet. But remember for the DBNF, the easiest and most cost effective way for them to manage climbing is to ban it.

[moonbeam]

I'll throw this out there...

Maybe this website needs to be promoted somewhat aggressively in gyms, outdoor stores, etc. We all know it's
full of good information, but I think most of the time we are preaching to the choir. The people that don't know
any better are the one's that need to be reading these threads and getting edumacated.

[lena_chita]

I'll throw this out there...

Maybe this website needs to be promoted somewhat aggressively in gyms, outdoor stores, etc. We all know it's
full of good information, but I think most of the time we are preaching to the choir. The people that don't know
any better are the one's that need to be reading these threads and getting edumacated.

I agree. The biggest problem I see is that the threads like Weber's announcement, this discussion, RRGCC fundraisers, etc. are only reaching a small segment of the climbers-- and reaching precisely the segment that IS already doing things, but not the majority of uninvolved.

A little bit of spray to establish the background:

I have donated $50 to MV this May, I have participated in MV trail day and "donated" more via raffle tickets, I am one of MV stewarts, though I am not local, so the times I come to MV are relatively infrequent.

I have donated $50 to RRGCC this spring and again this Rocktoberfest, I volunteered to help Dr. Bob for Rocktoberfest, I would have participated in John and Alex train day, and Roadside trail day, but both were on the weekends when I had commitments elsewhere.

I have donated $40 to TeamSuck last December, and will donate again this year.

I am a member of the Access Fund.

/spray.


I have not always done/contributed as much as I did this year. In fact, I remember that years ago, when captain_static was making a pitch to donate to RRGCC, and addressed me personally on rockclimbing.com, I responded by saying something along the lines of "I have only been to the Red a couple of times and was only making it down to the Red maybe 2x a year (true at that point), and that while I was a member of the Access Fund, I could only give so much, and I had to make decisions about my money, and since New was the place I went to more often... well... NRAC was it." Kind of embarrassing now...


I am not in any better monetary situation right now than I was back then. In fact, quite the opposite. So what changed?

What changed is that I met people. People who were involved. People who were talking about it. People who made it personal and real, instead of just a distant "everyone should"... People who, through personal example, made me embarrassingly aware of the fact that I could be, and should be, doing more.

Back then I was a typical new climber, coming out of the gym. And people who were taking me on those first trips were NOT at all interested in donating, participating, etc. etc. Climbing was free -- except where it wasn't, like Gunks, or ZHorse Pens, or Red Rocks... there, you HAD to pay. But RRG/NRG was free.

I have moved on and found other people to climb with since then - and that made the biggest difference in my change of behavior, I think. But that core group of people who has been taking me out hte first few times is still there, still stewing in their own juices, still taking out new climbers, and still teaching them the same thing: climbing is free here, you don't have to pay for anything other than your own gear that you bring with you.



So really, I think it comes down to everyone who is already involved to try and spread the word to others. Not just sit in a circle of old friends, all of whom are also personally involved, donating, participating, maintaining bolts, etc. etc. and shake heads sadly at the masses that DO NOT do any of those things... but to go to the masses.

There is a tendency among strong experienced climbers to keep to themselves. Why go to a gumby wall on a busy weekend and face the crazy zoo, when you can go to your secret private new spot, or to an area where most of the gumbies will be kept out due to lack of easy routes, right? And if you do go to the gumby wall, it is so easy to feel superior and make fun of everyone else... And I am guilty, too... But somewhere, somehow, there has to be that interaction, and it has to be close and personal, instead of just announcements and posters, to make a REAL difference.

[toad857]

I'll throw this out there...

Maybe this website needs to be promoted somewhat aggressively in gyms, outdoor stores, etc. We all know it's
full of good information, but I think most of the time we are preaching to the choir. The people that don't know
any better are the one's that need to be reading these threads and getting edumacated.

good point!

there's a lot of preaching to the choir on here, and these words often fall on deaf ears (or none)

[Liz_Weber]

This is a great discussion by the way. Keep the good ideas coming.

On a side note I would LOVE to purchase some wildlife cameras to chatch the fecal bandits in the act.

The wildlife cameras are more entertaining than one might think, especially the one with infrared lighting for night. I bought them in hopes of catching sight of the bobcat we occasionally hear, or even a bear. We had one aimed at the barn because of a security issue. i did not expect to get photos of the person who walks off with toilet paper, two rolls at a time, from the Muir restrooms. Alas, no bear or bobcats yet, though.

Liz

[captain static]

I can remember dirtbag days when I didn't know where my next meal was coming from but was never so low that I contemplated the need to steal toilet paper

[DriskellHR]

Wow.....

[KD]

Driskell - why would you want pictures of people taking a pooh?