Rap vs. Lower

[Andrew]

I agree with bcombs, this is usually my process also.

[pigsteak]

that's becasue you guys suck. I have never weighted a bolt in the Red except for at the chains...ever. I onsight everything I decide to get on..just the way it is boyzzzzz.

[KD]

Alright where's Redpoint?

[lena_chita]

So I guess in my mind, the most dangerous part of this is when, while I am in direct, I untie from my knot to pass the rope through the rap rings, but I have to do this even if I am lowering, so at the very least, the most dangerous step for rapping is common to both practices. Am I wrong about this? Is there a hidden danger that I am not seeing?

You are wrong in your assumption that you HAVE to do it that way when lowering. In 99% of the cases the rings/quicklinks at the anchors are big enough to put a bight of rope through them. In that case, if I am planning to lower, i do not untie. After i go in direct, I put a bight of rope through the anchors, tie a figure 8 on the bight, and clip it with a locking binner to my belay loop. Now I am already on a toprope through the anchors, before I untie my original figure 8. Inever ever call "off belay" when I am at the top, I only ask for slack, and I am connected to the rope at all times.

Of course, when done correctly, rappel is safe. And most of the danger of rappel, statistically, comes into play on multi-pitch climbs.

But the fact remains that of all SINGLE-PITCH accidents that I have heard of, that have happened after the climber finished the climb ( e.i. not a climber taking a fall and decking due to belayer mistake, or slamming into wall, or being hit by rocks, etc. etc.), by far the most of them were due to the climber at the top going off belay and doing something rappell-related, either not setting up the rappell correctly, or rapping off the end of the ropes. And the next-most-common are due to the climber/belayer miscommunication (saying off belay and then not confirming on belay, not weighting the rope to test it, before going off direct, etc.)

[One-Fall]

When a person rappels, it just the weight of one body on the anchors. When being lowered, it's the combined weight of the belayer and climber and then some.

Can you explain this further? Isn't the belayer's weight being taken by the ground, and not the chains, when lowering a climber?

[Brentucky]

that's becasue you guys suck. I have never weighted a bolt in the Red except for at the chains...ever. I onsight everything I decide to get on..just the way it is boyzzzzz.

yeah, but let's get to the important part, did your belayer use a grigri or an atc?

[tbwilsonky]

When a person rappels, it just the weight of one body on the anchors. When being lowered, it's the combined weight of the belayer and climber and then some.

Can you explain this further? Isn't the belayer's weight being taken by the ground, and not the chains, when lowering a climber?

after you explain to the highly coveted but rarely seen aerial lower could you also explain "then some"? is that like dark matter? if so, could you also please explain dark matter.

xoxo

[rhunt]

I don't care what way you do it - you can hand over hand down the rope - just please stop getting hurt while climbing so the crags can remain open for at least one more year.

[Toad]

The belayer is a force counterweight when lowering the climber. If the belayer isn't exerting at least as much force (and then some) on their side of the rope as that on the climbers side, the belayer would rise off the ground and not much lowering would get done.


xoxo

[tbwilsonky]

sorry. i was just being a di... scientist. technically the load would be the climber's weight x 2 to provide the tension necessary for the counter weight. there is some 'then some', but it is mostly dynamic stresses rather than a 'force' generated by the belayer.