Developing at a wall being developed

[chosen1]

"What if the "late comer" did a significant amount of trail work to the crag before any ropes were hanging or any other work were done. Would that change the scenario?"

@ Mike-anderson.
No. This just makes the "late comer" an idiot for doing all the trail work before claiming lines he was interested in. If there is no evidence of bolting development, whose to say this trail wasn't cleared for hunting, hiking, or mountain biking?


"As for hanging ropes, bolts, draws, etc. My understanding is that all of that is abandoned gear, and you leave it at your own risk. Isn't that the argument many on here have been making regarding "perma draws"?"
@ Mike-anderson. Let me know what route you're working next. I'll be sure to snag your "abandoned gear" off your project to add to my rack. Just send me a PM. thanks

[pigsteak]

Hey, I had a project stolen once....

[chosen1]

Ray told me to.and he's the boss.

[pigsteak]

Ray told me to.and he's the boss.

to that I agree.....

[rjackson]

Hypotheticals aside... it's bad form and just plain inconsiderate to NOT find out what's going on if it is clear that there has been activity at a cliff. Hanging ropes, new bolts, freshly cut trails all are indicators that this is not an abandoned site or something on a back burner. (And even if it was, you should still try and get the history.) Though some may think it, this is not the wild, wild west. I haven't had a line snaked (bolted or not) yet (that I know of), but I have had my stash stolen along with a hanging rope through anchors. Abandoned gear? OK, my fault. But thievery is how I would describe it.

And being new to the development scene I agree that there are only a small number of people with drills actually putting up routes and developing areas (eventually for the masses). There is plenty of rock out there if you are willing to put in the time to research, explore and do the prep work (gaining access, clearing and scrubbing). There's way more to the process than simply jugging lines and drilling holes.

[mike_anderson]

I've had one of my "abandoned" ropes taken as well, and I thought to myself "that's the risk you took...." If anyone needs an old rope for rap bolting, let me know. I have plenty lying around.

[kato]

Wouldn't you go to the landowner rather than whoever is developing? Seems like a landowner would give permission to specific people, not the community in general? Honest question, I have no idea how this normally works.

[mike_anderson]

Ok, I thought about this some more, and I think contacting the other people is a good idea, but I don't think it's really practical for everybody. If I'm walking through the woods and see a rope, and no other clues, that is not enough for me to go on. Add to that the fact that everyone wants to be super-double-extra secret about their "next motherlode" they are developing. Maybe Kipp knows everyone in the universe who owns a drill, but I don't. If I came across a wall with a rope hanging on it, should I post a question on the message board and expose the secret identity of the crag? I don't think the other person would want that. They probably also wouldn't want me to contact everyone I know who owns a drill and is psyched about bolting routes and tell them I just stumbled upon a nice looking wall. How about, if you're developing some mystery crag, you leave contact information with your abandoned gear, and then if someone else comes across it, they can be easily contacted?

[mike_anderson]

@ Mike-anderson.
No. This just makes the "late comer" an idiot for doing all the trail work before claiming lines he was interested in. If there is no evidence of bolting development, whose to say this trail wasn't cleared for hunting, hiking, or mountain biking?

To each his own. Bolt routes how ever you want...if you like to put in the trail first, that's your prerogative, just don't whine about it if someone starts bolting the wall before you. On the other hand, if you like to hang a rope and leave it sitting there for weeks, months, or years, don't whine if someone else uses it.

I'll go along with some of what you all are saying, but I'll never agree to the idea that you can claim an entire cliff because you cleared a few trees, built a trail, and/or hung a rope. If that makes me a jerk, then so be it. It's a lot of work to develop a crag, so why wouldn't you welcome some extra help?

[rjackson]

If you have committed to developing enough to buy a drill and are familiar enough with the area to be wandering around in the woods, then I would think that you have been around enough to have some knowledge of the development community. You don't have to call everyone you know with a drill, only one or two people who are usually in the know. (Kipp and Dario spring to mind.) If they don't know then they can make a call or two and usually find out what's going on if it is more than just one person throwing up a random line. Even then, they may know. And you don't have to give away an exact location (walk 300 yards right of Choco factory's last route and look for the giant Elm tree and flat rock) but usually a general direction of the area (Any idea who's developing around the Lode? or... Have you heard of anything new up Sammy's Fork Road?). And I had my name on my 'abandoned' gear as well as a plea to 'Please Leave for Developer' written in giant Sharpie all over my buckets. Somebody, somewhere may be wondering who the hell RJackson is when they stumble across my buckets in a ditch someday...