•• I have been wondering about this question in light of all the incidents that we have had.
While this question was on my mind I saw:
- a belayer standing away from the wall while his leader was clipping bolt 2. There was too much slack paid out. The climber would have decked, if he had fallen, but he would not have had to deck with a better belay. These people were basically gym rats.
- a belayer paying out slack exactly in the fashion Petzl recommends that we do not use the Grigri. Just look at the manual and picture with the red X over it. It was a picture of this person. The pair were on a 12b. They were talking about packing up. I asked the belayer whether she was going to give it a go. She said, "she climbs 5.12, I am only a 5.10 climber."
•• I both cases I did not say anything, but there is no way I'd trust either of these belayers. I hate to be preachy on one hand, but lives are in danger on the other hand. What is the proper thing to do/ say in your opinion?
•• I reach the opinion that if one is going to accurately access one's risks, this assessment has to be done on an individual basis.
•• A corollary to the opinion involves individual risk minimization by
- assessing the risk one runs by climbing with individual X with risk level x.
- being open and honest with your climbing partner about your perception regarding their practices.
- being receptive to criticism from your partner and from strangers.
How unsafe is climbing?
How unsafe is climbing?
Last edited by caribe on Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How unsafe is climbing?
Parallel to the above train of thought, I have to appreciate the fact that I have had two or three close calls (perceived, how many unperceived?) during my 5 years of climbing. Any approach to climbing that is non-anal just seems wrong-headed.
Re: How unsafe is climbing?
At the Lode on Saturday I witnessed two people belaying with a Gri-Gri using the Petzl not recommended technique. The technique with the big red x. The belayer kept their right hand on the gri-gri with the thumb over the cam the whole time. I also didn't say anything considering they have all been climbing longer than me, and I am not the type of person to tell people how to live their life.
So... how safe is climbing. Seems to me that in the first 10 years of my climbing career I had never heard of anyone dieing while sport climbing.
So... how safe is climbing. Seems to me that in the first 10 years of my climbing career I had never heard of anyone dieing while sport climbing.
Living the dream
Re: How unsafe is climbing?
Sharp Carabiners - I've been more vigilant lately in inspecting what I am clipping on equipped routes. Not surprisingly there have been several where I thought twice about using them and one instance where I swapped it with my own draw. I think many of us are clipping into knives and not even realizing it.
Poor Belaying - This has always, always been bad. I've heard many people say "Do the math". The problem, I think, is that many people don't understand the mechanics of the system they are tied into, let alone the ability to estimate fall distances, rope stretch, weight differential, etc...
So what accounts for the uptick in incidents recently? Number or people? People going to fast and being sloppy? People being social butterflies while on belay? Radios? Dogs? and on and on.... Probably all of it I guess.
I'm sort of with Andrew in that I don't approach people enough about their crappy habits.
Edited to add: Climbing is dangerous. Always has been, always will be. Keep the feet on the ground if this is a concern.
Poor Belaying - This has always, always been bad. I've heard many people say "Do the math". The problem, I think, is that many people don't understand the mechanics of the system they are tied into, let alone the ability to estimate fall distances, rope stretch, weight differential, etc...
So what accounts for the uptick in incidents recently? Number or people? People going to fast and being sloppy? People being social butterflies while on belay? Radios? Dogs? and on and on.... Probably all of it I guess.
I'm sort of with Andrew in that I don't approach people enough about their crappy habits.
Edited to add: Climbing is dangerous. Always has been, always will be. Keep the feet on the ground if this is a concern.
Re: How unsafe is climbing?
I am with Andrew - is use to seem safer than driving a car. A quick answer to all the accidents is due to the increase in total numbers of climbers - I think there is way more to it than that. "Decking" was not an option when learned to climb...kinda like the old school trad ethic of the leader shall never fall. Now it seems like "decking" has become a normal part of climbing!
GriGri, accidents may have more to do with diameter of ropes being used than how the device is being used.
I still place a lot of blame/responsibility on climbing gyms - or at least to say - new climbers are learning a lot of bad habits at climbing gyms - including how to behave outdoors - ie huge groups and loud music.
So for me and the small group of people I climb with - it is still as safe as its always been. Although I do find myself paying a lot more attention to how I am using a GriGri when using one.
GriGri, accidents may have more to do with diameter of ropes being used than how the device is being used.
I still place a lot of blame/responsibility on climbing gyms - or at least to say - new climbers are learning a lot of bad habits at climbing gyms - including how to behave outdoors - ie huge groups and loud music.
So for me and the small group of people I climb with - it is still as safe as its always been. Although I do find myself paying a lot more attention to how I am using a GriGri when using one.
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist
Re: How unsafe is climbing?
I used to think its was the sheer volume, but now I just think its sheer stupidity. It seems now that every weekend someone decks due to some careless activity. When I learned to climb I certainly did stupid shit too, but I was taught safety by a safety nazi. Doing stupid shit is generally safe so long as its instinctual to back yourself up. Without proper instruction this simple rule is overlooked.
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared
Re: How unsafe is climbing?
A quick comment about skinny ropes. I don't like them.
Despite all of the people who say "the gri-gri works fine on my (insert thin rope here)", the problem is that when a unusual circumstance happens or a mistake, a thin cord is LESS LIKELY to lock up a gri-gri. I think we are finally starting to see some scenario's where this is happening.
Despite all of the people who say "the gri-gri works fine on my (insert thin rope here)", the problem is that when a unusual circumstance happens or a mistake, a thin cord is LESS LIKELY to lock up a gri-gri. I think we are finally starting to see some scenario's where this is happening.
Living the dream
Re: How unsafe is climbing?
krampus wrote:but I was taught safety by a safety nazi.
I know who you are talking about. I had the same Nazi. What a guy he is! He did not suffer the fool for very long!
Re: How unsafe is climbing?
Climbing is as safe as you make it. It is inherently dangerous; but so is driving a car, riding a bike, taking a shower or eating dinner.
And you can't blame the gyms any more than you can blame the equipment suppliers. Before you can climb in a gym you sign the waiver that states you may be seriously injured. When you buy gear there are warnings everywhere. Gyms can not be held responsible for low IQs and poor individual judgement. Anyone can buy a rope and a rack and have at it.
I do think the fact that most 'climbers' are more interested in the social aspects of the day rather than the physical act of climbing is a contributing factor to most accidents.
And you can't blame the gyms any more than you can blame the equipment suppliers. Before you can climb in a gym you sign the waiver that states you may be seriously injured. When you buy gear there are warnings everywhere. Gyms can not be held responsible for low IQs and poor individual judgement. Anyone can buy a rope and a rack and have at it.
I do think the fact that most 'climbers' are more interested in the social aspects of the day rather than the physical act of climbing is a contributing factor to most accidents.
Pick myself up, stop lookin' back.
Grand Funk Railroad
Grand Funk Railroad
Re: How unsafe is climbing?
Admittedly I haven't been out much lately but the story has really changed a lot. Every single time I have been out the last couple years I have seen someone royally screwing it up, with potentially deadly consequences.
There are many more people now and fewer of them are trained properly. It's always been dangerous, but it was also serious. Climbing and belaying and the whole situation just seems so casual these days. It makes for a perfect storm that breeds inattention and that hurts just as bad as marginal training. It's really scary at the crags when you don't like to see people bleeding.
I'd really just rather ride my bike.
There are many more people now and fewer of them are trained properly. It's always been dangerous, but it was also serious. Climbing and belaying and the whole situation just seems so casual these days. It makes for a perfect storm that breeds inattention and that hurts just as bad as marginal training. It's really scary at the crags when you don't like to see people bleeding.
I'd really just rather ride my bike.