On the (rare) occasions I've ever seen other people using a cinch, I have more than once seen them prying/holding the silver plate open with their thumb to pay out slack. I envision this method similar to what people are doing when they pry a grigri open as described in the scenario that is the subject of this thread. In either method, there is no hand on the brake end. And yes, whenever I see people doing that with a cinch, I tell them how to do it the right way. It's still easy, pays out rope quickly, and always keeps your hand on the brake end.
With that said, I still recognize that no belay device - especially in the hands of a human being - is foolproof. Not to harp on another sore subject, but it's my understanding that the accident this March happened with the belayer using a Cinch. Since that time, I have been immensely curious - and somewhat freaked out - as to the mechanics of that accident vis a viz the Cinch. My curiosity is based on the safety of myself and those I climb with; I have been hoping that some details about that accident would be made public so I can learn from the incident. I would hope the same thing would be done if such an accident were to happen to me. If anyone has info they can share publicly or PM me, I would appreciate that.
Hands down why I like my Cinch way better than my Grigri. My hand is always on the brake and the only thing holding the device in the feed position is a slight change in the position of the device. Any force what so ever in the opposite direction and it goes to lock up.
I've watched countless people gradually get comfortable with a Grigri to the point that they fall victim to the "clamp the cam down" technique. Hell, I'm guilty of it myself. I don't use one anymore because I don't like belaying with it the proper way. So rather than belay with it the wrong way I just stopped using it. I've heard of people being dropped with a Cinch too, so don't think I'm hailing it as the end all, but I do think it's design has some inherent characteristics that make it safer to use, when used correctly than the Grigri.
That being said, I know a technique to feed slack out of a Grigri without ever taking my hand off the brake or clamping the cam down as in other technques on a Grigri, maybe Petzl should adopt that one?
when a climber is resting at a bolt, can you take boht hands off the cinch, eat a sandwich, make a phone call, and spray two handed with a cinch? tie a back up knot in the gri gri and people do it all the time.
Toad wrote:Double ropes. Redundant belayers. Hang your own draws. It's the only way to be safe out there.
No dude have you ever climbed in the southern region, apparently not, because if you have you would of had to of climbed on perma draws which are not yours. And how many people have you ever seen at the red with double ropes and two belayers climbing a sport route, NEVER it just doesn't happen.
Look dude Im just giving you the recipe for safety just because you don't see it happening where you climb doesn't mean it doesnt happen or that it wont work you must be really close minded when it comes to being safe im just trying to help you man and dont make fun of me because i cant make it to the southern region because its too far south but i will correct what i first wrote:
Double ropes. Redundant belayers. Redundant belayers. Hang your own draws. It's the only way to be safe out there.
camhead wrote:
That's really sketchy, dude. You're still trusting bolts that someone else drilled. Don't know about you, but my life is worth more than that.
Toad wrote:Double ropes. Redundant belayers. Hang your own draws. It's the only way to be safe out there.
No dude have you ever climbed in the southern region, apparently not, because if you have you would of had to of climbed on perma draws which are not yours. And how many people have you ever seen at the red with double ropes and two belayers climbing a sport route, NEVER it just doesn't happen.
Look dude Im just giving you the recipe for safety just because you don't see it happening where you climb doesn't mean it doesnt happen or that it wont work you must be really close minded when it comes to being safe im just trying to help you man and dont make fun of me because i cant make it to the southern region because its too far south but i will correct what i first wrote:
Double ropes. Redundant belayers. Redundant belayers. Hang your own draws. It's the only way to be safe out there.
sorry man it kind of came off the wrong way, but what you are saying is the safest way, but it isn't exactly the most practical. And like every article says climbing is always going to have some element of danger.
but huggy, don't we all agree that taking out as many variables as possible is the goal..remove the barking dogs, the belayer talking to others than their climber, the loud music, the crowd noise, experience belaying in many situations, doube checking each other, verablizing your actions as a climber, always holding the brake end...etc...the more you adhere to all of these things, the less likely it is to happen to you.
if you must have music at the crag, please wear headphones..its like your dog..no one likes either as much as you think they do.
