climber decks, kills dog?

[dustonian]

You want constructive? How about "can the inane moralizing and count your lucky stars that your buddy isn't dead or permanently bedridden"?

[paulcorsaro]

IDratherCLIMB said

RASTAMAN: I can confirm your account. The gri gri was loaded properly. Whether or not her hand was on the cam would have only been part of the problem.

If by part of the problem you mean a large part, if not all of the problem, then you are correct. If the gri gri was loaded properly, then the only reason the climber fell that far was belayer error. If the gri gri didn't fail, and a properly functioning gri gri paired with a proper belay should arrest the fall WAY before decking, then there was obviously a problem with the belay. Maybe the remaining parts of the problem would consist of the lack of attention by the belayer, etc. Creating a profile to defend someones mistake is noble, but there is no way someone should have decked from there on that route. If her hand was on the cam, then that is a large, if not the only factor leading to the climber falling roughly 50 FEET. Quite a few people have taken the fall from around there and haven't decked. Just sayin'. I'm sure both the climber and belayer are nice people, 99.9% of the climbers i've met are indeed nice people, but just because a person is nice doesn't mean he or she is without fault. It sucks, but sometimes the most trying experiences are the most educational experiences. I've experienced it, we all have dealt with shitty experiences. It's not fun, but hopefully we learn something from said experiences.

I'm glad all parties involved are ok, i wish a speedy recovery to the climber, and It sucks about the dog but there have been way too many accidents recently. This shit needs to stop. Attempting to justify one's mistakes does nothing to help the problem.




Like I said, very noble of you to create a profile to defend someone, but it's someone's fault that this happened. It's not a multitude of factors coming together when the planets are aligned to create a once in a million freak accident. The person holding the rope has the climber's life in his/her hands, and should behave as such. The climbing community is responsible for self-policing, and like it or not, this forum is one of the ways that happens. You can create a profile and call out members on here who are only stating their minds and mean the best, both for the safety of themselves, and everyone else, which includes you IDratherCLIMB. We all love the gorge and do what we can for it, and sometimes that entails being the asshole for safety's sake.

my .02



Flame on.

[Saxman]

The person who left the trail of dust was pissed because his daughter almost got to watch someone die due to another person's reckless actions. Funny you think it was me since I was trying to help prevent things like this by volunteering my time teaching new climbers how to be safe at the UClimb clinic this past weekend. My friend did do something wrong. He should have tried to instruct on proper belay technique and then left if improper belaying continued, actions many of us firmly believe in. If people won't listen, leave so you don't have to help clean up the mess. Hopefully everyone who reads this will try to convince one other person who belays in an unsafe manner to reform.

[Shamis]

This is why I recommend letting go of the gri-gri if you're not used to using it, which goes for a lot of newer climbers, or veteran climbers that are used to atc's. I've heard all the bullshit stories about gri-gri's 'slipping', and it just doesn't happen during a fall unless you're doing something really retarded. People get seriously injured when the belayer pinches the gri-gri because physical pressure is what they instinctively want to apply when the rope starts moving fast, which is great if their hands are on the rope, and catastrophic if their hands are on the metal.

[whatahutch]

@IDratherCLIMB
You are completely right. This website is full of self-worshiping, self-righteous, name calling, finger-pointing people. I have been in numerous squabbles on here about how we as a community on these forums should be a little more gentle towards each other.

However, it sounds as if this accident could have been prevented. You semi-state that yourself about how she was clamping down on the gri-gri. The first lesson I was ever taught when it came to belaying. NEVER NEVER NEVER take your brake hand off the rope, period, no matter what belay device you are using. NEVER NEVER NEVER.
(Maybe she did have her brake hand on the rope. I just didn't find where she was did reported in the forum).

NEVER

[goodguy]

I am happy that the climber only has a minor physical injury and will recover. However, it sounds like it is the belayers fault that the climber decked. I have dealt with both teaching new belayers with ATC's and Gri Gri's. I have also intervened when climbers were using unsafe belay techniques and I have had the opportunity to talk to belayers after they made a mistake and nearly or did drop a climber.

In my experience the only way to change a belayers technique is to intervene immediately upon seeing the mistakes and if they are willing to take responsibility for their actions then someone must be brutally honest with them and let them know their and only their actions are the reason the climber hit the ground. Keep in mind, including the distractions as contributing factors is fine as long as they understand that it should not have happened even with them there. When something like this happens and the climber and belayer can walk away relatively unscathed it could turn out to be a good thing for the long safe future of their climbing lives.

OK. so I think it is sad that the dog is dead. I have always had a dog and I have 3 siblings and 3 kids. I don't bring my dog to the crag because it isn't safe for the climbers and belayers to have to worry about any other distractions. For the same reason I go to less frequented crags when I have new people and/or my kids.

Also, I have seen defensive responses on this forum for years and I hope that after re reading the post that , IDratherCLIMB put up. He/She will find the part about losing a dog like losing a sibling a bit over the top, but it is nice that the people involved in the accident have someone who will go to bat for them.

[bentley]

Wow are there a lot of confused people out there.

It's very cut and dry. The belayer made a mistake by grabbing the cam on the gri gri. Thanks to Toad, we know the root of the problem, she was incorrectly taught on how to use a gri gri. If this does not make sense, refer to my original post below.

If there is a tug on the rope and your reaction is to hold down the cam on a gri gri or if that does not make sense, please see my original post below.

If you think not touching the gri gri at all when using it, please stop belaying until you realize your incorrect and watch the link below.

If you think letting go of the brake end of the rope is the only way to give slack, your a dangerous belayer. If that does not make sense watch the link below.

Use a gri gri like an ATC, it is NOT an auto locking device. It is a brake assisted device.

First off, the the gri gri is still in one piece, the belay device did not fail. It was improperly used.

The music and number of people in this incident are irrelevant.

If you put your hand over the cam on a gri gri, it will not lock.

If that does not make sense to you please stop belaying with a gri gri until you can figure out how to use it properly.
Here is a video that explains this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSVchbjVKLE

[Andrew]

I wasn't going to post, but since this has turned in to a cluster of people I know arguing with one another I feel like I should try to provide some diplomacy.

For those who don't know I dropped my sister about 4 years ago. It was my fault, belayer error. I wasn't holding down the cam like most do when dropping someone with a gri-gri, but I was holding tightly to the climber end of the rope trying to regain balance on a rock. This didn't allow enough pressure for the cam to engage and for those that don't know, once rope starts flying through a gri-gri, especially a thin rope, it won't stop on its own. Anyway, my sister got really lucky and is fine, still climbs hard and still gives me hell about it.

1. People are bashing pretty hard on the two climbers who I know well. There is a significant amount of name calling and thumbing of noses like IdratherCLIMB said. But just as I had to accept, this was belayer error, plain and simple, and yes experienced belayers can make mistakes. Why people can't understand the fact that experienced climbers can make errors is beyond me. I think the numerous recent examples around the U.S. have proved this.
2. To the people that ran out of there as soon as the accident happened, shame on you. That is lame everyday of the week, and twice on sunday.(pun intended) Sure you have kids, so do I, so let one person take them, and everyone else stay and help, or even better sit them by possum lips and both help to make sure the situation is stable. I don't care how stupid or your assumptions of stupid the people who had the accident are, HELP THEM. I don't care if they were climbing while juggling chainsaws, help them. Yall are lame, and if I know you which I probably do, that was a lame move.
3. IdratherClimb, I am also sure I know you also, but are you really serious. Losing a dog is not like losing a sibling, when was the last time you heard of someone losing a sibling and then they went out and bought another sibling. Never.
4. Saxman you really are being an ass.
5. Once again we all really need to learn from this scenario. Belayers need to really think about their technique. People should be aware of where they sit and where they put their dogs, how many of us sit underneath climbers.
6. I got seriously made fun of for a long time for my mistake, and rightfully so... sorry D and M but I am probably going to give you a hard time, and after learning from the mistakes laughter usually is some good medicine.
7. If there is anything I learned from this is to climb with a pack of dogs below me with a layer of cats on top of them.(sorry I had to) RIP Pepper you were a cute dog.

[chriss]

Thanks for the thoughtful post Andrew. Finally someone with some tact and insight.

But just as I had to accept, this was belayer error, plain and simple, and yes experienced belayers can make mistakes. Why people can't understand the fact that experienced climbers can make errors is beyond me.

Very well put!

To the people that ran out of there as soon as the accident happened, shame on you. That is lame everyday of the week, and twice on sunday.(pun intended) Sure you have kids, so do I, so let one person take them, and everyone else stay and help, or even better sit them by possum lips and both help to make sure the situation is stable. I don't care how stupid or your assumptions of stupid the people who had the accident are, HELP THEM. I don't care if they were climbing while juggling chainsaws, help them. Yall are lame, and if I know you which I probably do, that was a lame move.

Yes, shame on you! Well put again Andrew. People really ran out, wow!!! That to me is the worst part of the situation. (How about setting an example for your kids?)

[krampus]

Right or wrong - most everybody using a gri-gri takes their hand off the brake to feed slack..... But when my climber needs a lot of slack to clip quickly - I take my hand off the brake - BRIEFLY.

Please don't ever belay me....ever