Dynamic rope severed

[pigsteak]

so why again do we leave so much fixed gear? are climbers really that lazy?

rhetorical..I know the answer.

Ahhhh, piggy....

I brought this up back in '08 and stirred up a little hornet's nest. Let it go.

lol..for all the training hard ass steep sport climbers do, I find it quite hilarious that they take the easy way out and leave draws hanging. stir up that nest..people need to know that climbing on this crappy gear is lazy and potentially harmful to their health.

[One-Fall]

Im definitely the lazy guy who likes seeing gear hanging on a route, so I don't have to place it. At least I used to. In the coming weeks, I plan to replace the draws on Dirty Smelly Hippie and Table of Colors with these

http://www.climbtechgear.com/p11/PermaD ... _info.html

Give them a spin and let me know what you think: the good, the bad, the ugly. Maybe we get a little order together and can replace some of the classics at The Red.

[the lurkist]

Those look great. Captive long life biner, screw gate quick link that can be cranked down and difficult to remove (even lock tited?).
But how long is the life of these steel biners? Will they give a false sense of security? So instead of a heightened sense of awareness of gear, are we trading for not worrying at all?
Should we go to no pre hung gear, hanging all gear for each ascent? Difficult for harder routes, but given the almost certain death potential the fall at MV would have had if the draw had been higher on the route, do we have a choice?
I know the answer- go with the beefier perma draws, and I don't disagree. But these too will wear, and then what? I think it comes down to how resilient are these types of perma draws.

[weber]

...I know the answer- go with the beefier perma draws, and I don't disagree. But these too will wear, and then what? ...

Suggestion: Every time you climb, get into the habit of inspecting the fixed gear at the anchors and the stuff left hanging on the bolts. If it looks bad, either report it or replace it.

I hope we've made it profoundly clear in postings, waivers, warning signs, etc. that climbers should report any and all suspect gear found in Muir Valley to the owners. And, please do not take a magic marker and write a big note on the rock surface stating: "Do not climb here - loose bolt" as one visitor did. !?

Rick

[Toad]

Suggestion: Every time you climb, get into the habit of inspecting the fixed gear at the anchors and the stuff left hanging on the bolts. If it looks bad, either report it or replace it.

If only....

[tbwilsonky]

i replace worn biners when i see them. it's got nothing to do with 'giving back'... i just don't wanna die.

seems to me this is an 'ethic' everyone can get on board with.

[the lurkist]

That is a policy at MV and that is great while there is one person providing oversight. But what of the larger climbing community?
What about having self perpetuating climbing cultural habits that will minimize the need for gear inspection. While I agree that we should always be aware of the gear we climb on and inspect it each time, if there are many pieces of gear that need to be inspected, doesn't that allow for many more opportunities for gear failure that despite our best vigilance and inspections, to occur? What about cliffs where there is no one to report to?
I am not disparaging MV, but lauding your oversight. I only propose more institutional/ cultural changes that will create mechanisms to dis allow the chance of this type of failure from occurring and that would be in place at every cliff- namely, always hang your own gear. Again, I realize this isn't practical for some routes.
A word about steel biners. I still have the first fixe anchors from the top of Chain Saw. Steel biners on a solid steel ring. When I took them down they were well over half way worn through in the basket after 3-4 seasons. Like Rick said, rope encrusted with sand is a very effective cutting tool. This is what cut the blocks that made the pyramids. How long will steel last?

[pigsteak]

...I know the answer- go with the beefier perma draws, and I don't disagree. But these too will wear, and then what? ...

Suggestion: Every time you climb, get into the habit of inspecting the fixed gear at the anchors and the stuff left hanging on the bolts. If it looks bad, either report it or replace it.

I hope we've made it profoundly clear in postings, waivers, warning signs, etc. that climbers should report any and all suspect gear found in Muir Valley to the owners. And, please do not take a magic marker and write a big note on the rock surface stating: "Do not climb here - loose bolt" as one visitor did. !?

Rick

sorry Rick about the magic marker....I couldn't find any paint.

[One-Fall]

kipp: now THATS funny.

Hugh: The right answer is no perma-gear. Place it yourself. I just don't see it happening at our overhung cliffs (lode, driveby, marley,etc). I cant give you an answer on how fast the steel wears out, but that is what I am hoping to look at. We could also equip a moderate line that gets run almost everyday to see how the draws hold up (sunshine, crazyfingers, injured reserve, king me, or those types).

I really do get that its a dangerous sport, and that we are all ultimately responsible for our own safety, but there is something in the back of my head that is making me want to protect those who just don't know better. When Blake and I got those two off of DSH, it just hit me like a ton of bricks, someone is going to die soon because of this.

[KD]

Piggy I thought you were taggin'