chester makes a good point.
i'd like to emphasize that this is the hypothesized account and the link i pulled from the forum neuroshock linked to is for general enlightenment.
other posts mentioned the climb as Rico Suave.
NRG Kaymoor Area Accident
i had some extra Petzl Strings after i reconfigured my quickdraw set. I have been using them on a set of slings with locking ovals for a couple of years now...
i think i would notice if the slings were clipped within themselves but probably wouldn't have even seen the problem with it until i saw this video today.
Sad stuff.
i think i would notice if the slings were clipped within themselves but probably wouldn't have even seen the problem with it until i saw this video today.
Sad stuff.
And on the third day, God created the Red River Gorge(by conjecture), and he saw that it was good.
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Eric Cox
I hate so much to hear this news.
I have had this happen to me before. Years ago I made the discovery how using the "Petzl String" (I believe they are called). It's real easy to think you are good and all that is holding you is the rubber tip. There are warnings explaining the use of them in the instructions.
I have had this happen to me before. Years ago I made the discovery how using the "Petzl String" (I believe they are called). It's real easy to think you are good and all that is holding you is the rubber tip. There are warnings explaining the use of them in the instructions.
When horrible things like this happen, it really puts climbing into perspective. My girlfriend and I were climbing on that exact section of Kaymoor less than two weeks ago and my condolences go out to all the family and friends, as well as anyone else who was vicariously involved.
I'm in the same boat as a lot of other people here, being that I had no idea about the potential misuse of a petzl string and the horrifying consequences that can thus result. In light of this, it seems like there should be a discussion about the ethics of cleaning. In my experience, very few people rap clean at the red and the New. Although I don't know whether Karen was rap-cleaning or not--and I think that knowing how to rap-clean is a valuable skill-- the issue remains, that this happened because there was a moment where she was not on belay, and not tied into the rope. No matter how properly everything is done, rap-cleaning puts the climber in extra danger as there is more time spent completely off belay when pulling the rope all the way through. And, although the time being spent completely off belay is shorter, there is still a danger when cleaning on lower if you tie your byte into your gear loop (which is what I see most people being taught) rather than your belay loop. Granted, bolts are strong, and if everything is done properly it shouldn't be an issue, but regardless, things like this happen. Between the forum here and the forum on Rockclimbing.com, it seems like most people were in the dark about the hazards of using open runners and Petzl strings.
I appreciate all the hard work that goes into establishing a route and maintaining the hardware, but if climbers can stay on belay at all times, there shouldn't be a question of whether or not one should rap clean or clean while being lowered. If you clean on lower, you can stay on belay at all times, as long as when you go in direct to the anchors you tie your byte into your belay loop, instead of your gear loop. That way, you're never truly untied from the rope, and if your slings are managed incorrectly or the anchors fail (god forbid), then you're still tied to the rope, and you have all the other bolts below you to catch your fall. I know that most people clean while lowering, but it seems like there are too many people who are more concerned about keeping some metal rings around a few years longer than they are the safety of the climber. If you can stay on belay at all times, and never be disconnected from the rope, then why take the chance and have a moment--no matter how short it may be--where you're completely off belay and not tied into the rope?
If this method of cleaning could be formally established as being the absolute standard, then inevitably, the margin for error will be lowered and hopefully--as members of the climbing community--we can decrease the chances of seeing such tragic accidents occur.
I'm in the same boat as a lot of other people here, being that I had no idea about the potential misuse of a petzl string and the horrifying consequences that can thus result. In light of this, it seems like there should be a discussion about the ethics of cleaning. In my experience, very few people rap clean at the red and the New. Although I don't know whether Karen was rap-cleaning or not--and I think that knowing how to rap-clean is a valuable skill-- the issue remains, that this happened because there was a moment where she was not on belay, and not tied into the rope. No matter how properly everything is done, rap-cleaning puts the climber in extra danger as there is more time spent completely off belay when pulling the rope all the way through. And, although the time being spent completely off belay is shorter, there is still a danger when cleaning on lower if you tie your byte into your gear loop (which is what I see most people being taught) rather than your belay loop. Granted, bolts are strong, and if everything is done properly it shouldn't be an issue, but regardless, things like this happen. Between the forum here and the forum on Rockclimbing.com, it seems like most people were in the dark about the hazards of using open runners and Petzl strings.
I appreciate all the hard work that goes into establishing a route and maintaining the hardware, but if climbers can stay on belay at all times, there shouldn't be a question of whether or not one should rap clean or clean while being lowered. If you clean on lower, you can stay on belay at all times, as long as when you go in direct to the anchors you tie your byte into your belay loop, instead of your gear loop. That way, you're never truly untied from the rope, and if your slings are managed incorrectly or the anchors fail (god forbid), then you're still tied to the rope, and you have all the other bolts below you to catch your fall. I know that most people clean while lowering, but it seems like there are too many people who are more concerned about keeping some metal rings around a few years longer than they are the safety of the climber. If you can stay on belay at all times, and never be disconnected from the rope, then why take the chance and have a moment--no matter how short it may be--where you're completely off belay and not tied into the rope?
If this method of cleaning could be formally established as being the absolute standard, then inevitably, the margin for error will be lowered and hopefully--as members of the climbing community--we can decrease the chances of seeing such tragic accidents occur.
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michaelarmand
- Posts: 527
- Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:08 pm
The rap cleaning vs lowering debate can be taken up somewhere else - but I totally disagree. If we misuse our equipment there is nothing that can be done to prevent accidents. Your rap-lowering setup is a total cluster of rope work, which in my opinion makes it less safe.
Keep it simple, and get rid of the rubber bands....
Keep it simple, and get rid of the rubber bands....
I've been a gumby longer than you've been climbing.