Ground Fall @ Drive-By

[kneebar]

I am having a tough time with this one. It is nice to have an area like Muir were the owner has all say on the safety aspects of routes, trails, roads, dogs, hours of climbing, parking, etc. Rick and Liz have created a climbing area suited for many people coming to the area for the first time, and I don't just mean the inexperienced. I have recommended muir to quite a few. I wouldn't be surprised if one day helmets are not required there and in the direction of safety measures implemented in muir perhaps it should. It is a proven safety measure after all. Rick and Liz have done there homework to make Muir as safe as posible and backed it up with tons of cash and effort. You have a nice safe place to park your car, bathrooms to poo in............sweet! Thanks Rick!

On the other side I think it is important to have climbs like BB at the red. At least on BB you can see what you are getting into before you leave the ground. You know you are soloing when approaching the second bolt or at least you should. It is part of the thrill for some of us.

In some areas I have been to, Black Hills in the Dakotas for example you are fucked if you fall on some of the routes, it is just the way it is. But it does light a fire inside when you top out. Leading can be dangerous and is, hell I've seen belayers screw up a toprope. Climbing is never going to be 100% safe, this isn't Disneyland we are trying to create here. Sometimes you just have to walk away or put the big girl pants on.

And CLee glad to hear you are okay, keep climbing and watch for rope burn!

[climb2core]

You know you are soloing when approaching the second bolt or at least you should. It is part of the thrill for some of us.

If you desire the thrill of ground fall potential, just ignore the second bolt and jug on up to the third... Hell, why not just skip the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc... The climb should get more thrilling with every move you make Seriously though, isn't the fall thrilling enough without the added bonus of decking?

BTW, I am not advocating rebolting every route in the Red with GF potential from 1-2... but I do think we have to move away from the old-school mindset of bolting the easier routes assuming they are only the warm ups for the studs of the sport...

[kneebar]

Or, just move on to another climb. I am not saying new routes should be put up in this manor, it is a new era. If you think about it the climbing world has gone to both ends of the safety spectrum. Super bold to altra-safe. My point is routes exist like this all over the country, at some point you have to draw a line as to were safety starts and personal resposibility starts.

I personally would be fine with adjusting the bolts on BB, I honestly don't remember the climb, don't care, there is just so many classic routes in the red. Hume put the route up, ask him. Pretty sure Gene just boulders anymore........he has been dropped too many times leading, kind of ironic don't you think!

Don't drink the kool-aid

[clif]

pointing out the obvious, even if one adopts the 16/5 foot bolt rule does not mean the belayer and climber can climb without consideration of complications or poor judgement.

respect the uncertainties. i don't have the mindset that 10d is an easier route bolted for the warm-ups of the studs of the sport. spotting isn't only for bouldering and protecting the climber only before being on belay.

for me, the tendency toward simplification is as troubling as sub-optimal bolt spacing.

[Josephine]

As for adjusting bolts. There are about 840 sport climbs in red river gorge and about 240 in Muir Valley. for arguments sake, let's say the bolting jobs in MV are done perfectly with respect to the first and second bolt. That still leaves about 600 sport climbs - or 1,200 1st/2nd bolts.

1. who is going to go around and check them
2. who is going to invest the time to move them
3. who is going to pay for that

I know the answer is NOT the RRGCC (they are an access organization). I also know the answer is NOT Team Suck. while they do rebolt, they don't have the man-power or the money to address every route! That is a very time-consuming and expensive process to say the least.

My personal solution is to carefully assess the routes I climb, and the ones i feel are bolted badly - well, i don't climb those. or i TR them to death before i do lead them. the other solution would be for me to fix them, and right now that's just not practical as i lack the experience, time and money!

personally, i led whip stocking long before breakfast, and the bolting at the bottom was part of it. i also led 5.11 before i would lead a particular 5.9+ because i knew if i botched the 3rd clip, i'd hit the ground and would likely not walk away.

one of the things i did when i was really new was to look at a route and determine where the "bad falls" were. then i'd talk to my belayer, who usually had been climbing for 5-25 years longer than me and ask him to check and make sure i'd gotten it right. learned a lot that way!

and of course, i wear a helmet 8)

[OZ]

It might also be worth noting that not every climb will allow for a good clipping stance at ideally placed intervals. No matter the good intentions of a bolter, sooner or later one will run into a situation with ground fall potential. It's all just risk assessment between the belayer and climber.

[Clevis Hitch]

It amazes me how everyone wants to know the mechanics of what happened when its obvious. Everyone wants to place the blame anywhere other than where it ultimatly lies. Go after the original equipper. Go after the CC for not policing. Go after Gyms for not teaching. Fuck I'm surprised that they haven't gone after George Bush over it!

Here's the truth. It's the FUCKING BELAYER'S FAULT!!
It has been everytime. From the incident at Darkside to this current debacle. Every time its the fault of the belayer.

Most belayers in the gorge stand around with their thumb in their ass jackin their stupid fucking jaw to every jackass around them rather than doing their FUCKING JOB!! Which is to constantly assess everything that the climber is doing and to talk to the climber. It ain't social hour when the climb is on. If climbing is your business then be about your business.

Sorry for stating the obvious. I will not be responding to this thread. This is a rhetorical statement

[climb2core]

Here's the truth. It's the FUCKING BELAYER'S FAULT!!
It has been everytime. From the incident at Darkside to this current debacle. Every time its the fault of the belayer.

Not speaking about Darkside, but specifically the BB incident.
Clevis I have a bet for you...

Lets meet at BB. I will attach the rope to a 50 lbs sack, run it through the first draw and bring it up to about 3 ft. below the second draw. Then I will pull enough slack to clip the second bolt. You will stand under the 1st bolt at the base of the rock. Next, without warning I will throw the sack back off the wall in the trajectory CLee fell. $100 says the sack will deck despite you knowing ahead of time there is a fall coming. Loser donates the $$ to the RRGCC.

PM me if you want to take that bet...

Now that being said, I completely agree with you other statement:

Most belayers in the gorge stand around with their thumb in their ass jackin their stupid fucking jaw to every jackass around them rather than doing their FUCKING JOB!! Which is to constantly assess everything that the climber is doing and to talk to the climber. It ain't social hour when the climb is on. If climbing is your business then be about your business.

Ian

[clif]

cause Clevis said he wasn't going to respond and i generally get my climbing fix online these days..

i think your experiment may prove an interpretation you don't intend.
if you are right, can one conclude that the situation was foreseeable and
still unavoidable? (which i guess was your point with your first longish post)

so to kind of repeat, that is not the place to stand, that is not the place to clip from, and Josephine describes a fantastic approach to smart climbing.

[climb2core]

think your experiment may prove an interpretation you don't intend.
if you are right, can one conclude that the situation was (you mean unforseeable, right?) foreseeable and still unavoidable? (which i guess was your point with your first longish post)

My point is this:
1.) Clevis' statement put the blame directly on DonnyP. That is a powerful statement and shouldn't be made by someone who did not witness the fall or evaluate the physics of it.

2.) Potential for ground falls exist despite the best and attentive belaying. Not every accident can be attributed to belayer error. That being said I completely agree that there tends to be a lack of focus when it comes to belaying and MANY injuries could have been prevented with better belaying.

so to kind of repeat, that is not the place to stand, that is not the place to clip from, and Josephine describes a fantastic approach to smart climbing.

1.) I am not sure if that is not the place to stand. While moving to higher ground gives you the advantage of dropping to the ground during a fall, it also puts the rope to first bolt at a fairly sharp angle and you would definitley swing into the wall. I like to think of myself as a reasonably cautious belayer, and I have not chosen to stand up on the rock when belaying. It would be interesting to drop that sack and try both belay positions in the interest of learning how to be safer.

2.) Ideal clipping doesn't always automatically mean clipping at your waist. Case in point... I was on a 10d at Chocolate factory 2 days after the fall. The second bolt was placed high and right before the crux. My options were stand low and clip from a decent stance/hold while pulling out more rope, or to try to clip of a difficult crimp with poor feet. I chose the first option, full well knowing that if I fell, I would deck. Also knew that would not be belayer error... Also had two other members in our climbing group come over to spot- and I know that is not something that would have happened had we not been at Drive by during the fall.
So, with regards to BB, I cannot recall what holds are like a couple of moves up the rock from where CLee fell. But regardless, that is ultimately the responsibility of the climber to evaluate their best clipping stance and cannot be blamed on the belayer.

3.) I think Josephine makes an excellent case how to approach sport climbing safely and couldn't agree with you more.

So, to reiterate, I agree with much of what Clevis had to say, but take exception when he places judgement on the belaying of DonnyP during CLee's fall. I actually think he should issue a a public statement on this forum titled "Sorry DonnyP, I was an ASS"

Just my 2 cents...

Ian