One more comment...
There is no point in trying to make sure CLee learned from this event. If she and her belayer have not already taken this incident to heart to grow and learn from it, nothing anyone can say on this board will change that. The focus needs to be on what we can learn as community to make climbing safer for us all.
I have said enough. Hopefully people reading this thread will be safer for it.
Ian
Ground Fall @ Drive-By
I guess I took umbrage with the insinuation (not necessarily from you) that they should be responsible for the individuals that learn to climb in their gym becoming or not becoming competent and safe climbers in the outdoors.clif wrote:at the least it (the not responsible argument) demonstrates a lack of concern. to dismiss the opportunity to elevate awareness, emphasize responsibility, contribute to a climbing culture of preventative measures...
2core..
my point in the 6 ft. note was an attempt to elicit clarity and get the facts so that sound judgements could be made. thanks for the encouragement...
so, it sounds like she landed closer to the base of the rock than six feet...
I can totally agree with gym owners being responsible stewards and providing some very limited guidance to their patrons, but I would stop very short of saying that they have an outright responsibility or duty to ensure that these people are prepared... but to unduly expose their business, property and families to the liabilities of preparing climbers for the outdoors would be stupid on their part unless they also run a fully insured guiding service.
By the by, those posters we discussed are up in my local gym. Never noticed them before... Hopefully, at the next comp, whenever that is, a rep from the RRGCC can come by and do a quick slide show for first timers or newbs coming to the gorge. It's nice to put a name to a face, and I still think it's a good opportunity to hit the demographic and potential donor base. Just a thought.
I have followed this topic for a few days now, and it seems appropriate that I post my account of this event, and a few comments directed toward some conversations that have come about here.
It seems that only a few people actually witnessed CLee's fall, and as her belayer, I am almost certainly the one who, unfortunately, had the best view. I and another member of our group took an early lap up Breakfast Burrito immediately upon arrival to Drive-By that morning. The route being every bit as enjoyable and exciting as I remembered from last year, I began talking it up to CLee, suggesting she do it, as it is well within her abilities, and a classic of its grade.
As is usually the case, Breakfast Burrito had a line of climbers waiting for it all day, and when she finally had a chance a few hours later CLee took her turn on Breakfast Burrito. She and another member of our group got set up, stick clipped the first bolt, and then I came over and put CLee on belay. I stood just to her right, at the base of the wall under the first bolt. She started up the route, hung the second draw, repositioned, and as she reached for slack to clip, her left hand slipped off of her hold and she came crashing to the ground. She landed flat on her back on a flat boulder, her head just at its edge. Her eyes rolled back in her head, she seized, and only moments after impact a stream of blood was flowing from the back of her head. I offer this image only to demonstrate the seriousness of the situation, as some people participating in this conversation seem to believe that the attention she received was excessive.
With a nurse on hand (something for which I am infinitely grateful), CLee was stabilized until the ambulance arrived. Most improbably, she sustained only a minor laceration and sizable bump to the back of her head, a serious rope burn on the back of her thigh, bruising to her back, and some lingering head and body aches.
There are several precautions that could have been taken to prevent such an accident: stick-clipping the second bolt, spotting the climber, belayer being prepared to take in a lot of slack in a hurry by jumping off of something, first and second bolt being located nearer to each other. In retrospect I wish CLee had a helmet on her head, that I had been spotting her, that the second bolt had been stick clipped. Any of these things could have made a serious difference, but the procedure we followed is typical, and the one I most often see being followed by others at The Red. Almost everyone knows the dangers of clipping the second bolt, including CLee, and her hand slipping was unexpected. As she said, she was not excessively nervous or pumped. This has been a lesson to me to never climb something, or allow someone else to climb something, if there is a potential for a ground fall, because there are always factors for which one cannot account.
It is very easy to perceive the impetus that drives those of you who seek to place blame on either the climber or the belayer in this situation, particularly given that you were not on site when this accident took place. It is difficult to accept that these things happen to the smartest, most cautious, strongest, and most experienced of us. It is frightening to acknowledge the inherent risks of an activity we all love and with which we have become a little too comfortable. Climbing will always be dangerous, no matter how well prepared those involved become. The human role is the least predictable in these situations; all other precautions should be in place to compensate for this, so that when a human error occurs (such as an unexpected hand slip), there are back-up systems in place to compensate.
I strongly advocate the education and preparation of all climbers in safer techniques. At this time, there are probably more rock climbers in the US than ever before, and a lot of them are inexperienced. As I understand it, the bolts that are placed on sport routes are there to make climbing them as safe as possible. I see no reason not to have second bolts closer to first bolts, so that even with the ever-present human error factors, decking will be unlikely. I think higher first bolts are potentially dangerous, because those without stickclips handy will likely still attempt to climb and will not have protection until 15 or 20 feet.
Finally, I thank everyone who was at Drive-By Crag that day. It seemed that everyone played a role in assisting CLee in a time when she needed attention most, and given the seriousness of her immediate condition in contrast to her current condition, I have little doubt that those efforts had a positive impact on her health. In particular, I thank the nurse from KU Hospital (whose name I could not spell even if I wanted to name her here) who was at the crag that day. She was a true professional, and I hate to imagine how things might be different were she not present.
It seems that only a few people actually witnessed CLee's fall, and as her belayer, I am almost certainly the one who, unfortunately, had the best view. I and another member of our group took an early lap up Breakfast Burrito immediately upon arrival to Drive-By that morning. The route being every bit as enjoyable and exciting as I remembered from last year, I began talking it up to CLee, suggesting she do it, as it is well within her abilities, and a classic of its grade.
As is usually the case, Breakfast Burrito had a line of climbers waiting for it all day, and when she finally had a chance a few hours later CLee took her turn on Breakfast Burrito. She and another member of our group got set up, stick clipped the first bolt, and then I came over and put CLee on belay. I stood just to her right, at the base of the wall under the first bolt. She started up the route, hung the second draw, repositioned, and as she reached for slack to clip, her left hand slipped off of her hold and she came crashing to the ground. She landed flat on her back on a flat boulder, her head just at its edge. Her eyes rolled back in her head, she seized, and only moments after impact a stream of blood was flowing from the back of her head. I offer this image only to demonstrate the seriousness of the situation, as some people participating in this conversation seem to believe that the attention she received was excessive.
With a nurse on hand (something for which I am infinitely grateful), CLee was stabilized until the ambulance arrived. Most improbably, she sustained only a minor laceration and sizable bump to the back of her head, a serious rope burn on the back of her thigh, bruising to her back, and some lingering head and body aches.
There are several precautions that could have been taken to prevent such an accident: stick-clipping the second bolt, spotting the climber, belayer being prepared to take in a lot of slack in a hurry by jumping off of something, first and second bolt being located nearer to each other. In retrospect I wish CLee had a helmet on her head, that I had been spotting her, that the second bolt had been stick clipped. Any of these things could have made a serious difference, but the procedure we followed is typical, and the one I most often see being followed by others at The Red. Almost everyone knows the dangers of clipping the second bolt, including CLee, and her hand slipping was unexpected. As she said, she was not excessively nervous or pumped. This has been a lesson to me to never climb something, or allow someone else to climb something, if there is a potential for a ground fall, because there are always factors for which one cannot account.
It is very easy to perceive the impetus that drives those of you who seek to place blame on either the climber or the belayer in this situation, particularly given that you were not on site when this accident took place. It is difficult to accept that these things happen to the smartest, most cautious, strongest, and most experienced of us. It is frightening to acknowledge the inherent risks of an activity we all love and with which we have become a little too comfortable. Climbing will always be dangerous, no matter how well prepared those involved become. The human role is the least predictable in these situations; all other precautions should be in place to compensate for this, so that when a human error occurs (such as an unexpected hand slip), there are back-up systems in place to compensate.
I strongly advocate the education and preparation of all climbers in safer techniques. At this time, there are probably more rock climbers in the US than ever before, and a lot of them are inexperienced. As I understand it, the bolts that are placed on sport routes are there to make climbing them as safe as possible. I see no reason not to have second bolts closer to first bolts, so that even with the ever-present human error factors, decking will be unlikely. I think higher first bolts are potentially dangerous, because those without stickclips handy will likely still attempt to climb and will not have protection until 15 or 20 feet.
Finally, I thank everyone who was at Drive-By Crag that day. It seemed that everyone played a role in assisting CLee in a time when she needed attention most, and given the seriousness of her immediate condition in contrast to her current condition, I have little doubt that those efforts had a positive impact on her health. In particular, I thank the nurse from KU Hospital (whose name I could not spell even if I wanted to name her here) who was at the crag that day. She was a true professional, and I hate to imagine how things might be different were she not present.
Thanks for the account.
Who spots after the first bolt? I've never seen anyone do that. At that point you're on belay. Belay negates the need for a spot, in 99% of cases.
We all know how complacent we become while belaying. It's really just the fact that unexpected falls are rare between the first and third bolts that keeps us from having more of these situations. Almost every seasoned climber just've easily could've been in either the climber's or belayer's shoes in this instance.
Belay for the 1% freak accident.
Who spots after the first bolt? I've never seen anyone do that. At that point you're on belay. Belay negates the need for a spot, in 99% of cases.
We all know how complacent we become while belaying. It's really just the fact that unexpected falls are rare between the first and third bolts that keeps us from having more of these situations. Almost every seasoned climber just've easily could've been in either the climber's or belayer's shoes in this instance.
Belay for the 1% freak accident.
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the lurkist
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captain static
- Posts: 2438
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 6:05 pm
That both the climber and the belayer have come on here and given the first hand account details is truly appreciated. There is much undue speculation and innuendo posted on climbing bbs's about accidents. I concluded that this was purely an accident after reading CLee's account.
This may seem morbid but I play a game when I traverse at the Eden Park Wall called "Climb Until I Fall to my Death". My goal is to climb to muscular failure but sometimes I pop off when my foot or hand slips. When the later happens I will say to myself, "Whoops, I just fell to my death".
The lessons I get from this incident are: 1) people should more seriously consider wearing a helmet when sport climbing; 2) be a vigilant belayer, feet/hands can slip, holds can break; and 3) one I haven't yet heard in this thread - clip at waist height not above the head if possible, especially for the first two clips. Another lesson that has not been mentioned but that I will point out is that not all sport climbs are bolted ideally for safety. This is especially true for older climbs. Many of the older climbs in RRG were bolted with the thinking that the climber would be solid at that grade. This includes the thought that where the grade eases back the spacing forces a runout, especially the higher off the deck you go. Climb Smart out there people.
This may seem morbid but I play a game when I traverse at the Eden Park Wall called "Climb Until I Fall to my Death". My goal is to climb to muscular failure but sometimes I pop off when my foot or hand slips. When the later happens I will say to myself, "Whoops, I just fell to my death".
The lessons I get from this incident are: 1) people should more seriously consider wearing a helmet when sport climbing; 2) be a vigilant belayer, feet/hands can slip, holds can break; and 3) one I haven't yet heard in this thread - clip at waist height not above the head if possible, especially for the first two clips. Another lesson that has not been mentioned but that I will point out is that not all sport climbs are bolted ideally for safety. This is especially true for older climbs. Many of the older climbs in RRG were bolted with the thinking that the climber would be solid at that grade. This includes the thought that where the grade eases back the spacing forces a runout, especially the higher off the deck you go. Climb Smart out there people.
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh
Absolutely. After climbing a lot in the PMRP and Muir Valley, I got on an older line at Eastern Sky Bridge ridge and scared the crap out of myself (and my belayer). There are so many variables, assessment from ground level and overall experience become paramount regardless of the grade.captain static wrote: Another lesson that has not been mentioned but that I will point out is that not all sport climbs are bolted ideally for safety. This is especially true for older climbs. Many of the older climbs in RRG were bolted with the thinking that the climber would be solid at that grade.
" Gimme the bat Wendy... just, gimme the bat."
http://izzyill.carbonmade.com
http://izzyill.carbonmade.com
How many hundreds (if not thousands) of safe ascents has this route seen? Climbing is not antiseptic, it's a bit dangerous. Accidents happen. Wake up and handle the responsibility. If you want to make breakfast burrito safer, maybe you shouldn't be climbing.
FYI This is Chuck posting from Torrent under Bob's account.
FYI This is Chuck posting from Torrent under Bob's account.
?!bob wrote:If you want to make breakfast burrito safer, maybe you shouldn't be climbing.
FYI This is Chuck posting from Torrent under Bob's account.
So I guess I shouldn't be climbing. Aside from possibly getting the FAer's panties in a bunch, it is a trivial matter to move the first two bolts on routes where they are positioned to guarantee a decking when the leader blows clipping the second bolt. Routes similar to BB in Muir have been corrected and there are a few more that will be done soon. And no, I am not advocating pirate rebolting of 1 and 2 on RRG routes. But to developers of moderate routes: Come on guys, consider putting the first bolt at about 16 feet up and the second at no more than 5.5 feet above the first. Whether or not the leader chooses to stickclip is his choice. But when you mis-position #1 and #2 and he cannot reach #2 with his stickclip, you as the developer have just set up your route with a written guarantee to the leader that he/she will deck if they screw clipping #2.
Funny...we advocate all kinds of safety in this sport, except when it comes to the sacred cow of suggesting to the developer how he might add a bit of safety to his route without changing an iota of its quality as a climb.
Free country - do what ever you want, but just don't do it at Muir.
Rick
We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand. - Randy Pausch
None are so old as those who have outlived enthusiasm. - Henry David Thoreau
None are so old as those who have outlived enthusiasm. - Henry David Thoreau