I think the big issue facing not just climbing in the Red, everywhere, ( and frankly, what is happening in the Red is probably a pretty good measure of national and international trends), is how to deal with more and more people coming to climbing. There needs to be a method to level the playing field for all climbers so that a base skill set, understanding, and sensitivity to core issues to climb safely are taught consistently.
One of the main things I am concerned about not being in new climbers sensiblities is "belay grip". You should be half way gripped when you are belaying someone. When you clamp on a gri gri or an ATC to catch someone, you should be fully on your toes, ready to give or take in slack, especially when the person is close to the ground.
Trad climbing, for me, taught this. The leader's fear of gear pulling, being pumped, placing gear pumped, etc... got communicated to the belayer and the belayer gave 110% of attention to the climber. Maybe it is the climber's fear that dictates this to the belayer. Maybe the cultural shift needs to be that every climber should consider that they will be the next guy in the Neuro ICU at UK with the family ready to withdrawl care, and with this fear demand from their belayer , "STFU and keep your eyes on me."
Ground Fall @ Drive-By
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the lurkist
- Posts: 2240
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:07 pm
I agree with caribe's point about belayer positioning, it becomes even more important if there is a weight differential, while obvious it can be downplayed and if the belayer is lifted and far enough from the wall a leader may impact from just the excess rope out caused by belayer positioning.It all goes back to the belayer being engaged with the situation.
really, i believe rick webber's stewardship program is the way to go. While muir valley incentives are a great motivator to get someone to talk to gumbies, this practice need to become the norm at all locations. Maybe, instead of avoiding popular crags, occasionally, those with experience should go to them and help out if possible or necessary. I know I am about the worst as far as avoiding crowds, I will climb any pigchoss just to avoid a line, but a visit to roadside or left flank outside of the winter time might not kill me, and might not kill someone else.
Its like the guy who told me I should leave dangerous rat chewed tat up at the top of trad climbs. My arguments probably did not change his opinion, but maybe his less experienced friends heard me and understood.
Its like the guy who told me I should leave dangerous rat chewed tat up at the top of trad climbs. My arguments probably did not change his opinion, but maybe his less experienced friends heard me and understood.
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared
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Dhaulagiri
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 6:33 pm
That's not a bad idea krampus but the fact remains that most people don't like being told what to do at the crag even if it is safety related. In the case of this Drive By groundfall it doesn't seem like there's much anyone outside the parties directly involved could have done to prevent the accident from happening.
I am one of those stubborn people too. Tell me what to do and I'll argue my point for days. but eventually when the moment is passed I can reason for myself and may change if I find out I am wrong. And the people not directly in the exchange may get something out of it too. No it won't stop every accident from happening, but we should be discussing how to maximize the minimization of stupidity.
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared
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climb2core
- Posts: 2224
- Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:04 pm
I was at Drive By when CLee's fall occurred and I was motivated to join this forum and reply after reading some of the comments posted.
First, I would like to say to CLee that I am glad you are ok... you gave us all quite a scare! I had talked to CLee and her belayer just before they got on the route. We were "next in line" for Breakfast Burrito. One of the climbers in my group stayed to watch CLee climb while I went back to watch another friend on Head and Shoulders. I also played a small role as one of the first responders as several other members of my climbing party did.
I would like to make the following comments/observations of CLee's fall:
1.) I cannot understand how people can make judgements about either CLee's climbing ability or her belayers ability. I was at the crag, had a friend that saw the fall, and had a chance to see CLee climb on another harder route and I still feel that I am in no position to judge. I cannot determine either CLee's mindset or climbing ability without knowing and climbing with her.
2.) Was the fall preventable by belaying/spotting? That is a difficult question to answer, however, I can offer the following observations: CLee fell approximately 6 ft. back from the base of the wall and landed on a large, flat boulder that was approximately 2 1/2 to 3 ft. high. This has several implications... a.) Spotting would have been likely been ineffective in this instance as the logical place to spot seemed to be at the base of the climb. b.) The belayer was standing at the base of ther crag (base upon rope bag placement and first hand accounting of the fall) c.) Catching a blown second clip by the belayer became even m,ore challenging based upon the fact that CLee landed approx. 3 ft. higher than ground level where the belayer was standing at the base of the crag. Based upon the observations, I doubt that better belaying or spotting could have prevented the ground fall.
3.) Was the injury preventable by different bolting? Possibly a higher first bolt and closer second bolt could have prevented the injury. After looking at the bolt placements I don't think I would suggest that anything be changed.
4.) Was the injury preventable by CLee? Only CLee knows her physical and mental mindset before/during the climb and this something I believe she has already spoken too. Much of the potential severity of injury could have been mitigated with wearing a helmet. This event has reminded to always climb within my head and physical ability, to constantly evaluate worst case scenario's for myself and my climbing partners, and to error on the side of caution. Climbing is a recreational activity for most of us, and our paychecks are not dependent upon how many onsights, flashes, or hard redpoints we achieve.
5.) Was the emergent response excessive? I heard CLee deck from at least 50 yds away. It took me a minute to summon all my courage to even go look and see if I could help. Based upon how loud it was, I thought the fall was from much higher. My friend, who saw the fall, said she bounced approximately 2 ft. back up into the air, after that her eyes rolled back and she seized. Next blood began to spill over the rock and drip onto the ground. Upon regaining conciousness she was only orientated to person and repeatedly asked what happened and her leg burned (rope burn). Not trying to be graphic for sensationalism. Just want people to realize how serious a fall from 15 ft. can be. EMS response with a back board and heli transport was the only appropriate response.
6.) CLee, find the ER trauma nurse from UK Hospital and buy her dinner. (If you don't, I will... but for slightly more selfish reasons
Joking aside, you have an angel looking after you to have someone like that climbing at the crag the day of your fall. She was a true professional and was able to compently assess, manage, and direct your emergent care by the first responders that came to your aid.
7.) What can be done to prevent future falls? I believe it comes to actively seeking those in need of mentorship and providing your time and knowledge to foster the development of a safe climbing community. I had an experienced mentor that taught me. Now climbing for over a decade, I try to do the same. Many times I have been climbing at the gym and heard the new climbers planning there first outdoor excursion. I will often invite myself along or invite them to join my group.
Well, that is enough for now. Again CLee, I am glad you are ok. Hopefully the climbing community to can look at the accident for all of us to learn and grow from. I know I have.
Ian
First, I would like to say to CLee that I am glad you are ok... you gave us all quite a scare! I had talked to CLee and her belayer just before they got on the route. We were "next in line" for Breakfast Burrito. One of the climbers in my group stayed to watch CLee climb while I went back to watch another friend on Head and Shoulders. I also played a small role as one of the first responders as several other members of my climbing party did.
I would like to make the following comments/observations of CLee's fall:
1.) I cannot understand how people can make judgements about either CLee's climbing ability or her belayers ability. I was at the crag, had a friend that saw the fall, and had a chance to see CLee climb on another harder route and I still feel that I am in no position to judge. I cannot determine either CLee's mindset or climbing ability without knowing and climbing with her.
2.) Was the fall preventable by belaying/spotting? That is a difficult question to answer, however, I can offer the following observations: CLee fell approximately 6 ft. back from the base of the wall and landed on a large, flat boulder that was approximately 2 1/2 to 3 ft. high. This has several implications... a.) Spotting would have been likely been ineffective in this instance as the logical place to spot seemed to be at the base of the climb. b.) The belayer was standing at the base of ther crag (base upon rope bag placement and first hand accounting of the fall) c.) Catching a blown second clip by the belayer became even m,ore challenging based upon the fact that CLee landed approx. 3 ft. higher than ground level where the belayer was standing at the base of the crag. Based upon the observations, I doubt that better belaying or spotting could have prevented the ground fall.
3.) Was the injury preventable by different bolting? Possibly a higher first bolt and closer second bolt could have prevented the injury. After looking at the bolt placements I don't think I would suggest that anything be changed.
4.) Was the injury preventable by CLee? Only CLee knows her physical and mental mindset before/during the climb and this something I believe she has already spoken too. Much of the potential severity of injury could have been mitigated with wearing a helmet. This event has reminded to always climb within my head and physical ability, to constantly evaluate worst case scenario's for myself and my climbing partners, and to error on the side of caution. Climbing is a recreational activity for most of us, and our paychecks are not dependent upon how many onsights, flashes, or hard redpoints we achieve.
5.) Was the emergent response excessive? I heard CLee deck from at least 50 yds away. It took me a minute to summon all my courage to even go look and see if I could help. Based upon how loud it was, I thought the fall was from much higher. My friend, who saw the fall, said she bounced approximately 2 ft. back up into the air, after that her eyes rolled back and she seized. Next blood began to spill over the rock and drip onto the ground. Upon regaining conciousness she was only orientated to person and repeatedly asked what happened and her leg burned (rope burn). Not trying to be graphic for sensationalism. Just want people to realize how serious a fall from 15 ft. can be. EMS response with a back board and heli transport was the only appropriate response.
6.) CLee, find the ER trauma nurse from UK Hospital and buy her dinner. (If you don't, I will... but for slightly more selfish reasons
Joking aside, you have an angel looking after you to have someone like that climbing at the crag the day of your fall. She was a true professional and was able to compently assess, manage, and direct your emergent care by the first responders that came to your aid. 7.) What can be done to prevent future falls? I believe it comes to actively seeking those in need of mentorship and providing your time and knowledge to foster the development of a safe climbing community. I had an experienced mentor that taught me. Now climbing for over a decade, I try to do the same. Many times I have been climbing at the gym and heard the new climbers planning there first outdoor excursion. I will often invite myself along or invite them to join my group.
Well, that is enough for now. Again CLee, I am glad you are ok. Hopefully the climbing community to can look at the accident for all of us to learn and grow from. I know I have.
Ian