gentle reminder

[schwagpad]

Had a scary experience at the gym the other day. I was using the old design of the Petzl reverso just like an ATC or any other tube device. My partner was hanging halfway up the wall, on lead. When she unweighted the rope I pulled with my non-brake hand to give her a little bit of slack like I always do. Usually I just let the rope slide through my brake hand when doing this, but when a device locks like this I use my non-brake hand to free it, then pull the slack again. This simply wasn't working like I'm used to with an ATC. With the reverso it seems like there is more friction partly due to its geometry and partly due to the sharper edges. I ended up pulling harder on the rope and loosening my brake hand more. Not smart. When the rope did finally move it jerked suddenly and bounced out of my lame grip. It took a half second to recover, and I had to take my eyes off the climber to see the rope. Felt really bad about this even though everything was ok.

What's the lesson here? 1) I made a mistake that could have turned out really bad. 2) Belay devices do behave differently even if they operate by the same principle as a bunch of other devices. Based on years of experience with an ATC I can't imagine the same thing happening with it. 3) I don't like the old-style reverso, especially since I'm not used to it.

[lena_chita]

You don't need your hand on the rope at all times with a gri gri--you need yor hand OFF the cam if there is a fall (one way to have your hand off of the cam would be to grab the rope instead).

this is sad. There are so many reasons hashed through previously why this attitude is so very incorrect.

Ok, I'm going to advocate for the devil here.

The attitude may be incorrect, but there is nothing explicitly wrong with the statement. Anyone who has ever done a big wall aid route knows that keeping your hand on the rope while belaying a three hour A4 pitch is absurd. There are plenty of circumstances throughout the climbing spectrum in which it is not 100% wrong to take your break hand off quickly. Beyond "don't die," every hard and fast rule of climbing has exceptions, and I have found that people who adhere to "ALWAYS" and "NEVER" statements tend to not have extensive bases of experience.

Belaying is an art. Good belayers know that there is constant mental improvisation and analysis that goes into split second decisions between a hard and soft catch, taking in or feeding out slack, sitting down or jumping off a ledge. It is all condition dependent, and is second nature to many of us.

I know of people with ten years climbing experience, who have caught every variety of whip with different belay devices. Sometimes, their break hands may leave the rope. I would feel infinitely more comfortable taking a whip with them than I would taking one on someone with his brand-new gym belay card, and indoctrinated with the attitude that all belaying is is "locking off and sitting down."

End of rant.

I see what you mean, of course. Reminds me of a scuba-diving instuctor friend who once said something like this: "when i teach, I tell my students never to go deeper than X hundred feet, never go exploring underwater caves alone, never to get into tight passages that they might not be able to trun around in, always turn back with excess oxygen leftover, etc. etc.-- and then I turn around and do all the things I told them not to do."

The more experienced someone is, the better that person is at evaluating risk (usually), and belaying is no different. And yeah, I'll take an experienced belayer over a gumby anytime.

But your examples of long aid climb simply isn't applicable to single-pitch sport climbing. I cannot see any reason why a belayer would need to take his hand off the brake in the time it takes to belay someone up 40-80ft climb. O.K., I can come up with special rare circumstance scenarios... but most of the time that there is just no reason to take the hand off in most cases of a single-pitch sport route -- other than complacency and belief that if the gear worked 100 times, it will work 101st time, too, no need to back it up.

The scenario I was thinking of, specifically, was at motherlode, a climber being at a kneebar rest, the rope not tensioned, and the belayer with both hands off miming to a friend the beta sequence for the next section of the climb.

Yeah, the climber probably wasn't going to fall off the rest spot. And yeah, the gri-gri would have probably worked, if he did fall off. And in the end, neither one of those scenarios happened, the climber happily finished the climb and was lowered off.

But I am uncomfortable with something like this. It would have been no harder to put a knot in the rope. Or to step on it. Or to just keep a light hand on the rope. No harder -- but a little safer.

We all know that there is no such thing as being 100% safe. Things happen that are beyond your control, mistakes are made, etc. etc. but there is a fine line where someone feels "safe enough", and everyone has their line.

[bcombs]

Yeah, the climber probably wasn't going to fall off the rest spot. And yeah, the gri-gri would have probably worked, if he did fall off. And in the end, neither one of those scenarios happened, the climber happily finished the climb and was lowered off.

Brake hand off the rope, then tie a disaster knot on the brake side. It takes 5 seconds to tie and untie an overhand.

I always do this when partners are resting, especially no hands laying on a ledge or something.

[drivel]

even if you keep your hand on the brake, getting pulled up into the rock could knock out your teeth, causing intense pain and letting go, possibly.

if you are conscious and your arm is still properly attached to your body, there is no reason and no excuse for "letting go, possibly."

[drivel]

Yeah, the climber probably wasn't going to fall off the rest spot. And yeah, the gri-gri would have probably worked, if he did fall off. And in the end, neither one of those scenarios happened, the climber happily finished the climb and was lowered off.

Brake hand off the rope, then tie a disaster knot on the brake side. It takes 5 seconds to tie and untie an overhand.

I always do this when partners are resting, especially no hands laying on a ledge or something.

or simply wrap the rope 1.5 times around your off hand. your hand ain't gonna get pulled through the device, and that takes less time than a knot.

[clif]

i'm dismayed by the degree of synthesis of thought and ideas in some posts.

add to your checklists being surprised by PAIN and getting caught off balance and trying to catch yourself when falling (say even wearing a helmet while on belay at sport crag) and your arm WILL reach out if not letting go but then your hand may get caught/pinned underneath you, breaking fingers and complicating locking off the rope, possibly. this is wildly improbable but it's much easier to simply anchor in when belaying a heavier climber, for one instance. hit your finger with a hammer while calmly reciting 'there is no excuse, there is no excuse'....

[charlie]

I hate to weigh in on Internet safety threads since experience and good technique will always trump everything academic and academia never trumps experience and technique but I like this.......

.....My management of the grigri is rope-independent. It has to work the same for all ropes.
--â–º It is also a good idea to mentally/ physically separate activities with belay devices. With the grigri my palm is alway up. With the ATC my palm is down.

I've always believed it's involuntary or instinctual reactions that make the difference in a split second so repetitive techniques seem useful to me. I like the differentiation between practicing palm up and down, so your body knows what to do without waiting for you to think about it.

[anticlmber]

i remeber an obit of a kid that was killed in yosemite(?) by rockfall. he was the belayer , the climber was up above, the belayer still had hold of the brake end.

it's called a death grip for a reason.

[toad857]

I've always believed it's involuntary or instinctual reactions that make the difference in a split second

agreed

[steep4me]

Didn't mean to cause a s#%^&%! storm with my comment. Please everyone keep your hand on the brake end of the rope at all times.


And.....for the hundreds of you who squeeze the sides of the gri gri or curl your fingers around it to hold the cam down to feed out slack quickly, please LET GO of the cam and grab the brake end if your climber falls while clipping.

My primary emphasis was to address the people who have held onto the cam instead of the brake and allowed climbers to deck this way. I have seen it 4 times and know of countless other instances.

So, i wasn't trying to write a new guide book for the gri gri, just reminding people to get off that cam if there is a fall. I have never had a rope slip through my gri gri or anyone else's, but i believe that this can also happen.