Accident at Darkside sat.

Post by **captain static** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:06 pm

The Forest Service has GPS information on all trails and climbing areas within Red River Gorge so no need to reinvent the wheel there. I know that weber is in contact with the USFS.

Post by **weber** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:42 pm

clausti wrote:I haven't spoken in this thread yet, so I'll preface these remarks with my best wishes and strongest hopes for Mike's recovery. He sounds like an amazing guy, and a fighter. ...

I know all cell phones now sold were required to be emergency GPS locatable. Why don't the dispatchers have access to this information? I mean, if somebody gets through on a cell phone, shouldn't they be able to look up where they are?

No expert here, but what we are told is that not all cell phones have GPS modules built in - only the newer ones. But, cel tower triangulation works very nicely... that is, where there are sufficient number of towers and trained 911 ops who know how to make it happen. We've tried to get it going down here, and you can guess the outcome.

In the city, a lost soul gets on his cel phone to 911, and the dispatcher can pin him down within 60 feet within seconds. Down here two weeks ago, we had a guy on his cel phone, lost in the Gorge, and found him only after ten hours of brutal, old fashioned ground tracking.

Go figure.

Rick

Post by **weber** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:47 pm

captain static wrote:The Forest Service has GPS information on all trails and climbing areas within Red River Gorge so no need to reinvent the wheel there. I know that weber is in contact with the USFS.

Bill,

Tim Eling has not released the official DBNF trail topo map that the GPS information was used for. I'll ask him if the GPS info might be made available.

Rick

Post by **neuroshock** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:49 pm

mike_a_lafontaine wrote:
neuroshock wrote:Meadows/Rick/Mike/whomever - Once UTM data and/or driving directions have been determined/generated for SAR use (i.e. formatted optimally for the dispatcher and teams), can they be posted somewhere for public download so that those of us that don't have the time/knowledge/resources to do so accurately can print off copies to keep in their packs?

That way should the event arise, whomever calls 911 can just read off that information.
Here is what I think would work. These data are a bit rough, as I generated it from transposing the Outragegis.com maps onto my USGS topo map. Better data could be generated simply by hiking the trails with a decent GPS device.

Anyway, imagine you are at Left Flank and someone falls at Maypop. You get in touch with the dispatcher and simply give her these numbers, which perhaps are found in the guidebook in the future:

Martin Fork Parking Lot : 5216E, 89004N
Martin Fork Trailhead: 5170E, 88902N
Military Wall Trail Intersection: 5200E, 88814N, stay on east (main) trail.
Left Flank Trail Branch, 5268E, 88725N take easterly branch up hill.
Left Flank Crag 5435E, 88677N

Those numbers may not mean a thing to you, but to SAR with USGS maps (which have the NAD 27 UTM grids on them) you just gave point to point directions on where their closest parking access is and where they need to follow trails to.

That's a great example of the kind of data I meant by "formatted optimally for the dispatcher and teams."

Post by **maine** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:32 pm

the lurkist wrote:Maybe it can wait, but it has to be discussed. The burden of suffering of the family and the belayer must be unbearable, but the community has to come to grips with this inevitability, and try to come up with mechanisms to prevent it.
Dustonian mentioned belay certifications--> given what is on the line, folks taking it a little more seriously with a purposeful and systematic approach is not a bad thought.

Well said, Hugh!

Post by **weber** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:32 pm

mike_a_lafontaine wrote:
Here is what I think would work. These data are a bit rough, as I generated it from transposing the Outragegis.com maps onto my USGS topo map. Better data could be generated simply by hiking the trails with a decent GPS device.

Anyway, imagine you are at Left Flank and someone falls at Maypop. You get in touch with the dispatcher and simply give her these numbers, which perhaps are found in the guidebook in the future:

Martin Fork Parking Lot : 5216E, 89004N
Martin Fork Trailhead: 5170E, 88902N
Military Wall Trail Intersection: 5200E, 88814N, stay on east (main) trail.
Left Flank Trail Branch, 5268E, 88725N take easterly branch up hill.
Left Flank Crag 5435E, 88677N

Those numbers may not mean a thing to you, but to SAR with USGS maps (which have the NAD 27 UTM grids on them) you just gave point to point directions on where their closest parking access is and where they need to follow trails to.

Mike, we would think we'd died and gone to heaven to get that kind of info. Because the dispatchers have had difficulty in transferring technical info to us in the past, it would be best for them to patch our SAR Comms guy to the caller reporting the numbers. Our job would be infinitely easier. Just punch the UTMs into our GPS and go get 'em.

Not to be insulting to the really good dispatchers, but there are a few down here we've had unbelievable problems communicating with â€“ even a simple phone number and street address. God help 'em with UTM numbers!

Rick

Post by **mike_a_lafontaine** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:57 pm

Well, we had the very, very good fortune that when we started our SAR group in Big Rapids, one of our members was not only a dispatcher herself but also the mother of the adjacent county's emergency response chief. Made things a lot easier.

Since I've moved to Pikeville, I have tried to get into the search and rescue group here, only to be told that an ATV is required because "we can cover a lot more ground than folks on foot." When I asked how they would find an injured person off trail? "Well, they'd be screamin' for help!" And how would you hear their screams over the dull roar of the ATV? Or what about if they were not capable of yelling? *insert blank stare*

captain static wrote:The Forest Service has GPS information on all trails and climbing areas within Red River Gorge so no need to reinvent the wheel there. I know that weber is in contact with the USFS.

Sure, but it would be a heck of a lot more fun to get about 20 people with GPS units that know how to use them, go out hiking for a day or two, download all the data and play with maps! It's never not fun to play with maps!

Post by **weber** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:13 pm

mike_a_lafontaine wrote:Since I've moved to Pikeville, I have tried to get into the search and rescue group here, only to be told that an ATV is required because "we can cover a lot more ground than folks on foot." When I asked how they would find an injured person off trail? "Well, they'd be screamin' for help!" And how would you hear their screams over the dull roar of the ATV? Or what about if they were not capable of yelling? *insert blank stare*

Welcome to Eastern Kentucky.

In all fairness, KyEM now has excellent BSAR ground search and mantracking training, but without ATVs I'm not sure how well these courses will go over with local folks.

Post by **Garmin** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:36 pm

My guess is that he blew the 4th clip, which is right in the middle of the crux. If you do this ground potential is definitely an option no matter what anyone tells you. I've seen people come right above the belayer's head by falling without rope clipping slack out. It would be easy to slip off of the slopey clipping hold, especially in this warmer weather... maybe this should finally be fixed!

Post by **Clevis Hitch** » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:43 pm

fat chance of fixing it! Don't you know that bolts are sacrosanct! Nevermind I'll fix it myself. Next time I go out I'll shuffle the bolts around.