Joe comes clean

[clif]

yeah.

Captain, i don't know that the mission being 'promoting responsible climbing' excludes bolting concerns/route maintenance, in that it does include land acquisition?

maybe as long as the online guide is being renovated there could be a pop up window or button added that offers making a donation to re-equip routes one adds to a spray/tick list or general fund to pmrp purchase if on SR land?

(i guess there would need to be a minimum donation though because of the paypal cut)

i think donation info should be sprayed as publicly as red-point ascents.

[Clevis Hitch]

I thought about starting a not-for-profit that put bolts directly in the hands of route equipers. I wanted drills belonging to the not-for-profit that when a person went through a training session that they could check out a drill and go bolt a route with provided bolts. Maybe even a apprentiship period where they had to help an old pro for a minute.
The problem is this, if you think climbers are territorial, you should try hanging out with bolters!
Besides, theres already team suck.

The CC has enough shit on its plate with out starting up some shit with bolts. Besides, theres probably a liability issue with bolting/providing bolts/redoing routes that the CC isn't equipped to deal with.
In the end, climbers are responsible for their own safety. Learn how to assess each route and clipping stances and the "don't fall here" zones.

Have fun-Joe

[dustonian]

No offense intended (seriously), but that sounds like a pretty bad idea. I'm just talking about a little financial support towards Team Suck for buying good hardware that everyone uses.

[the lurkist]

Maybe a louder public educational campaign. Flyers, and advertisement in the rags, posters at Miguels, etc... Really let people know that they need to pony up. Announce and support this in the context of a definitive goal--> "The Red is Going Stainless !" and then detail the costs of rebolting , say the Lode. You have to sweat people to get them to do the right thing (ask the RRGCC). But they will if asked. Of course, like Jeff said, there has to be follow through and accountability and an organizational sturcture that people can count on.

[weber]

Simpson strongtie Titan-HD -- I've also used them as hanger and anchor bolts in conjunction with set-22 glue. Makes a universal fix all. The only thing is, they don't come in SS. If they did, I think POWERS would be out of business as far a climbers are concerned.

Joe - Darned clever solution to the problem of not being able to hang on a fresh glue-in!

Only one problem I see - and that could be resolved with a design change. As you know, often a tightly-bolted hanger will be loosened by repeated loading on it due to climber falls. The sandstone just behind the hanger bracket is weak and simply crushes when the hanger is torqued, allowing it to loosen and become a spinner. With a sleeve bolted hanger, you can correct this by simply tightening the bolt. But, with the glued-in Titan, you are stuck with a permanent spinner.

Your suggestion of a stainless steel Titan could be carried a step farther and make it an eyebolt head rather than a hex head. Now, you just need to convince a manufacturer there is a market. Get rich on the royalties!

[dustonian]

I guess I'm not following you guys... there's already lots of stainless steel glue-ins on the market made by various manufacturers including Fixe: http://fixeusa.com/glue-in_bolts-541.htm

Are you just looking for something cheaper? Or something you can hang on immediately? A couple of 1/2" Removable Bolts from ClimbTech solves this problem nicely, and you can put the glue-in in the same 1/2" hole later on.

[weber]

Experience should teach me to stay out of the fray on this forum, but my Bolting Booklet was widely quoted in this thread, and I need to provide some updated information and correct some misinformation others have posted here. Outside of Muir, I couldn’t care less what hardware you use - I’m not the bolting police. However, in Muir we ask that developers choose from a list of preferred hardware.

We made this list based on extensive real world testing and solid mechanical engineering analysis and NOT on conjecture and opinions, of which there are many within this thread.

Generally, we at Muir, like many others, have recently chosen to use glue-in fasteners in future route development. We still use a few sleeve bolts on some types of rock faces and maintain confidence in this type of bolt when properly installed in solid rock. The advantages for using glue-ins far outweigh the disadvantages.

The Bolting Booklet is NOT a “how thou shalt boltâ€

[dustonian]

Right on, thanks for the info Rick. I agree that glue-ins are the way to go on soft sandstone with high humidity/rain levels. Jim T at Bolt Products is a great guy--he sent me a bunch of marine-grade glue-ins once FOR FREE when I was bolting a sea crag in CA and couldn't afford titanium. I still owe him for that and would recommend his products wholeheartedly.

[Redpoint]

Rick,

I figured if I quoted your book enough times maybe you would get on here and share some of your infinite wisdom Thanks for posting, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your last one, and many of my questions have now been answered.

I should have figured that just because Joe said "the threads create weak points" that it doesn't mean all bolts that are threaded all the way to the head suck, it was ole beginner bolter Joe who said it too. He never did source where he found out that "the threads create weak points", or how critical of a factor it was either.

I plan on learning to bolt through apprenticing, and I know just the people to teach me, the old cave bolters in the Louisville Grotto.

Well I can't wait to see the updated version of your book someday, and thanks a million for writing the one that's out. I like to possess all the knowledge I can get my hands on when dealing with my hobbies/sports.

[Clevis Hitch]

Too expensive! OMG nothing on there is less than $3. My target is $2. I think I can stretch it to less than $1.50