Joe comes clean

[Redpoint]

I believe Dynabolts and Dynabolt Golds are a different design.

Considering you can buy 10, 1/2 inch by 4 inch Dynabolt Golds for $26.70 (2.67 a piece), from this Ebay sellers website: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/6-5-x-35-Dyna-Dy ... 0257314048 I doubt they are very good quality.

UPDATE: Well I just found out you can get 25 Power-Bolts for $77.50, and so that's just $3.10 a bolt http://www.contractorstoolsupply.com/an ... 2&sort=20a and so I guess $2.67 isn't as cheap as I thought. The Power-Bolt claims it expands in two locations (the middle and the end) which sounds like an awesome feature http://www.powers.com/pdfs/mechanical/06914.pdf .


From the picture in the ebay ad above, the Dynabolt Golds look just like the normal Dynabolts, only Zinc plated with some clear cote over that: "special organic clear cote over zinc plating for added corrosion protection (250 hours, neutral salt spray, ASTM B117)" http://www.smithfast.com/dynaboltgold.htm . Joe mentioned that the normal Dynabolts corrode way too fast in the Red's Sandstone, and so at least the Dynabolt Golds have corrosion slightly in check.

Looking at the picture of the Dynabolt Gold in Rick's book: http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/BoltingRed17.pdf it definitely looks like the rod is completely threaded, just like the "Redheads"/normal Dynabolts. Joe said "the threads create weak points" and I believe it. So my conclusion is that Dynabolt Golds suck.

[bcombs]

So my conclusion is that Dynabolt Golds suck.

This from a guy who has never held a bolt in his hand, but has cruised Ebay plenty to know.

I'm glad to read the article, thanks for posting it Justin.

[heacocis]

Props to Joe for making such a statement, but I'm not sure that he should be thought of as an expert or even very knowledgeable for that matter. For example, he says he used 1/2 bolts, but the picture is of a 3/8 inch. And, a "1/2 inch" sleeve expansion bolt isn't actually 1/2 inch; the total diameter of the bolt and sleeve is 1/2 inch, thus the bolt is less than 1/2 inch. There is no doubt that the Powers bolt is the strongest, but that doesn't mean that a Redhead (which, by the way, is not equivalent to a Dynabolt Gold) is not safe. If you look up at ITW Redhead site, you will see that these bolts pass various industrial standards, and their rated strength far surpasses the impact forces generated in climbing. Moreover, the Redhead bolts actually have a higher breaking point than Hilti bolts, so why are we not discussing the hundreds of Hilti bolts in the Gorge? On the other hand, if you compare a Powers next to a Redhead, there is absolutely no question the Powers is much more 'beefy'; they are also rated to a few thousand pounds higher breaking strength. So, the Powers bolts are definitely more safe, but that doesn't mean that a Redhead is literally unsafe. Sorry for the stream of consciousness, these are just some thoughts.

[dustonian]

Good points heacocis. Those Hilti bolts you speak of blow. I bought a couple of those once cause they were so cheap and was amazed at how fruity and low-rated they were.

[Redpoint]

Props to Joe for making such a statement, but I'm not sure that he should be thought of as an expert or even very knowledgeable for that matter. For example, he says he used 1/2 bolts, but the picture is of a 3/8 inch. And, a "1/2 inch" sleeve expansion bolt isn't actually 1/2 inch; the total diameter of the bolt and sleeve is 1/2 inch, thus the bolt is less than 1/2 inch. There is no doubt that the Powers bolt is the strongest, but that doesn't mean that a Redhead (which, by the way, is not equivalent to a Dynabolt Gold) is not safe. If you look up at ITW Redhead site, you will see that these bolts pass various industrial standards, and their rated strength far surpasses the impact forces generated in climbing. Moreover, the Redhead bolts actually have a higher breaking point than Hilti bolts, so why are we not discussing the hundreds of Hilti bolts in the Gorge? On the other hand, if you compare a Powers next to a Redhead, there is absolutely no question the Powers is much more 'beefy'; they are also rated to a few thousand pounds higher breaking strength. So, the Powers bolts are definitely more safe, but that doesn't mean that a Redhead is literally unsafe. Sorry for the stream of consciousness, these are just some thoughts.

Ya he totally chose the wrong bolt size.

The minimum size bolt you should use in the Red should be 1/2 X 3 3/4 inches according to Ricks book, and Joe bought 3/8 by 3 inch.

"the climbing community is in general agreement that any sleeve anchor smaller in diameter than .500 inch is too small for bolting climbing routes."

"One disadvantage of the Fixe Triplex bolt is the overall length, which is only about 3 inches (75 mm.) Corbin sandstone has, in some cases, proven to be so soft as to blow out a chunk when short sleeve anchors are tightened in it. A general guideline in the RRG is to use sleeve anchors with a length of at least 3.75 inches."

http://www.muirvalley.com/pdf/BoltingRed17.pdf



What also made me think he chose the wrong bolt is the part in his blog about corrosion: "Dario Ventura (who has bolted a lot in the Red) informed me as well that he seldom uses Red Heads in Southern sandstone as it corrodes quickly in the moist season and is not long lasting."

So my conclusion is that Dynabolt Golds suck.

This from a guy who has never held a bolt in his hand, but has cruised Ebay plenty to know.

I have held a bolt in my hand bcombs and I will be bolting up pit caves and the Red soon enough. O wait I'm a gumby so I'll never be able to bolt in the Red, and I even have access to a rock drill too, o well. At least if I bolted in the Red I would have done my research unlike Joe(I wonder if he even got the dust out of the holes before he put the bolts in). I read Ricks book over a year ago, and so at least I know you are supposed to use 1/2 X 3 3/4 inch bolts. I would have also splurged for stainless steel, or at least zinc plated bolts, hippies

[dustonian]

Almost any bolt out there is "good enough" at first (thus all the quarter-inchers placed by old-school ground-up traddies BITD), it's really a question of durability over the years.

[the lurkist]

dude duston--> word
to your question regarding ss vs zinc plated (zp).
I have said it before, but it is the zinc plated rawls our there (most bolts of the red) that will keep me up at night.
It is cost prohibitive to bolt a route initially with ss. I have used ss all thread glues a few times as anchors, but never as an entire route. I have also taken apart ten year old bolts at the lode (zp) and they had surface rust but looked ok ow. (given there wasn't movement of the hanger sawing the head off).
All that said, it all just temporizing feel good. There is going to come a time when all those bolts will become time bombs. It will come to a few well intentioned and well healed dudes to step up and pay for the rebolting of each crag. A shit ton of work, but there it is. It will have to be done. Jeff has started the trend with the rebolting of FRC. That is a good start.

[the lurkist]

rebolting with ss glue ins, I mean.

[pigsteak]

jeff, what are you guys using in the roadside rebolting?

[Andrew]

I have pulled out some 12 year old plus bolts in the red, and besides surface rust they were in great shape. Doesn't mean they are all good, but these were fine.