Is the RRGCC Making the Grade?
Yeah, that's true--definitely nothing else like the RRGCC in any other climbing area I've ever been to, which encompasses a lot of geography. Good thing it came together when it did too, access was looking mighty sketchy around here 10-15 years ago when I first visited this place. Now it's a model for climbing access committees around the country.
*warning-long post-i wouldnt waste my time reading it-does not represent the RRGCC*
As a non-BOD member but from someone that has been involved with the RRGCC for close to 10 years the RRGCC has made huge improvements over the years and continues to do so.
As an organization it has brought things to the table that no other user group in the world has.
Most folks have no idea how much work has been and continues to be done with the Forest Service to keep climbing open, re-route illegal user trails, design the new LAC program and much much more. Those same people have no idea the behind the scene work it took to purchase the property that most of you play on today, much less the day to day task of running the place.
How many of you out there have ever put together a trail day consisting of a 100 people or events that bust the 1000's ? While doing all of this the BOD and the other core group of people are working their full time jobs as professionals in the business world and then coming home to run this one for free.
The RRGCC core team has grown from just a few people that cared enough to work their ass off for your climbing privilege to many behind the scene people doing the same thankless job. In the beginning those few dedicated core players fought hard to keeping climbing open with the Forest Service. I may be wrong but without them climbing would have been all but completely banned. This same group while working with FS issues put together a purchase that was un heard of and is the property you play on for free today.
They did this while most of you made fun of them , bitched about every step they took and even did things intentionally to mess with the organization. Just as any business or organization they had their flaws and made some mistakes. No business or organization can run a successful venture and not make them but they listened and learned from them.
The teams that are in place now are still changing the game as far as user group dealings with the FS, being land owners, running events and being part of the greater community. The climbing community has stepped up and helps whenever the call is made. Business is recognizing the efforts and standing behind the RRGCC. The FS calls and wants interaction and the oil company relationships are growing stronger. I dont think this will stop anytime soon and in my opinion will only get better.... but its up to you.
So those of you that have volunteered your time, money and gave constructive criticism over the years thanks !
To those that for whatever reason just enjoy bring drama into their lives and others.....give it a break, its old.
To folks from either of those groups that still want to discuss change and how to fix mistakes in a business manner then lets talk. No one in the organization is out to get anyone. They are doing the best they can with what they have and if you dont like how its being done........then help fix the problem or get out of the way.
My useless thoughts on whats been brought up so far
1. Survey- This is a good idea and has been talked about for a long time. But to get a survey that will hold up in court is a very expensive venture. Most the property is as black and white as any backwoods KY deed can be, "most" the boundaries are pretty much known.
Just to be taking the negative side, doing this could also create a backfire, what if the line everyone thinks is ours is determined that its not.
IMO, this is something that needs to be done but only after we have the land payments taken care of or we come into extra money.
2. Smaller/more trail days- To an extent this is and always has been going on, whether by the RRGCC or other folks that just want to volunteer their time. If you are interested in helping out on the property get in touch with Josephine, Bill or myself. Just in Jan there has been over 130 man hours donated to trail/cliff/mtb trail development.
There are many jobs that would be cool to see gyms or shops signing on to fix and coming down as a group and taking care of it.
There will be more trail days this year on the PMRP, other privately owned areas and in the Forest Service organized by the RRGCC. Stay tuned for more.
You dont have to wait for a trail day to help. Take your hand saw out with you and clear the trees that have fallen in storms, take a trash bag out with you and clean up at the crag, if an area of trail is being eroded contact one of us and we will come out and together we can fix the problem.
3. Meetings in other locations- Having slide shows, presentations and some public meetings in other locations is a great idea. Though this has been tried in the past with little success.
To make this successful a few things will have to happen. The RRGCC is going to have to advertise these events more.
The biggest thing that will make a difference is its going to take you actually going to the meeting and bringing all your climbing buddies along. If you belong to a gym, shop or whatever that would want to host an event, dont wait for someone else to start something. Contact the RRGCC, talk to the location, set a date and help organize the event.
Torrent just makes sense when the season is going strong. Most weekends most of you are in the Red already or just need a small excuse to make the trip.
4. More land purchase- Hell yeah, course we need to focus on paying this one off first. So only time can tell on this one.
5. Bolt replacement and development- RRGCC has never been or will never be the bolt police. There are many private folks out there doing it, some with much publicity like Team Suck Climbing and many others that never say a word. Either way please keep up the good work and remember that no good deed goes unpunished.
On a couple JATDS routes were developed. All material was donated and participation was by those not working on trails that wanted to learn a little about bolting, not the RRGCC. Bolting has not been apart of the JATD in about 2 or 3 years and will probably not be apart of the event in the future. This is to make sure that development and rebolting is not confused with the RRGCC's mission or responsibility to the climbing community.
But the rebolting effort is a great way to be involved within the greater community, but again is not an RRGCC sponsored effort. If you would like to learn more about it contact Wes, Blake, JJ, myself and many others. We would love to have you carry some of the weight to the crag and spend your money on gear for others to steal and wear out.
6.Marketing - This is a crux that the RRGCC has always had trouble sending. IMO is one of the biggest issues we have as an organization.
But it is getting better. There are folks in place like Sandy doing facebook, Meadows with tshirts/posters, Josi with vol, Bentley going to the OR, Paul on the website and many other folks pitching in.
What needs to happen is more people need to get involved. If you have facebook and myspace, if you post on other message boards and you hear of an event, make a link and get the word out. If you go to a gym or work in a shop, print the flyers out and hang them. If your in school then make sure you flyer the whole place. This type of organization depends on its members to help create the buzz so get your wings flapping and get it done.
If you have professional experience i this field Im sure the BOD would like to chat with you.
7. Arena and Oil Crack- Sucks they are closed and yes they are working on this. As climbers and users of the property you need to remember not to focus on these two areas. There are over 500 routes open and many more being opened each month. Continue your support of the RRGCC in general and in time and IMO these will get worked out.
8. Relations with the FS. I think some folks assume that if nothing is being brought up then nothing is going on, this is not true by any means. I would love to see the man-hours that Bill and many others spent over the last 5 years talking and dealing with the LAC process. You all do not see the emails pertaining to the Funk Rock rebolt day. You do not see the conversations between the managers and myself for rerouting user trails. The list goes on and on.
I agree 100% that the RRGCC needs to have more trail days in the FS lands. This is being planned and trail days will be released. But working in the Forest requires much planning, coordination and red tape. If some of you would like to help with that aspect then please let Bill or myself know.
9. Closed BOD sessions- EVERY business, organization and family have closed door sessions and will continue to have them. Some things just cannot be discussed in public sessions.
The RRGCC is a very open organization. If you want to know something ask or look, the answer is out there.
They have plenty of open door sessions and its not their fault most of you do not show up. Hopefully this will change in the coming year.
IMO I like having appointed BOD members. Just because someone can win a community vote does not make them a good match to the skills needed within the organization at that given time. The BOD members are generally leaders in their professional world and bring those skills to the table. If anyone is truly committed to the time, putting up with the bullshit and have true skills to bring to the table then let your intentions be known. It may or not work out based on the current needs.
Sorry about the long post. It just seems when things like this get posted and we try to have real world conversations about the RRGCC , its positives and negatives the same online drama gets brought up by the same people. If you have problems that cool, lets be adults and work together to solve them.
Now back to my normally boring life....
As a non-BOD member but from someone that has been involved with the RRGCC for close to 10 years the RRGCC has made huge improvements over the years and continues to do so.
As an organization it has brought things to the table that no other user group in the world has.
Most folks have no idea how much work has been and continues to be done with the Forest Service to keep climbing open, re-route illegal user trails, design the new LAC program and much much more. Those same people have no idea the behind the scene work it took to purchase the property that most of you play on today, much less the day to day task of running the place.
How many of you out there have ever put together a trail day consisting of a 100 people or events that bust the 1000's ? While doing all of this the BOD and the other core group of people are working their full time jobs as professionals in the business world and then coming home to run this one for free.
The RRGCC core team has grown from just a few people that cared enough to work their ass off for your climbing privilege to many behind the scene people doing the same thankless job. In the beginning those few dedicated core players fought hard to keeping climbing open with the Forest Service. I may be wrong but without them climbing would have been all but completely banned. This same group while working with FS issues put together a purchase that was un heard of and is the property you play on for free today.
They did this while most of you made fun of them , bitched about every step they took and even did things intentionally to mess with the organization. Just as any business or organization they had their flaws and made some mistakes. No business or organization can run a successful venture and not make them but they listened and learned from them.
The teams that are in place now are still changing the game as far as user group dealings with the FS, being land owners, running events and being part of the greater community. The climbing community has stepped up and helps whenever the call is made. Business is recognizing the efforts and standing behind the RRGCC. The FS calls and wants interaction and the oil company relationships are growing stronger. I dont think this will stop anytime soon and in my opinion will only get better.... but its up to you.
So those of you that have volunteered your time, money and gave constructive criticism over the years thanks !
To those that for whatever reason just enjoy bring drama into their lives and others.....give it a break, its old.
To folks from either of those groups that still want to discuss change and how to fix mistakes in a business manner then lets talk. No one in the organization is out to get anyone. They are doing the best they can with what they have and if you dont like how its being done........then help fix the problem or get out of the way.
My useless thoughts on whats been brought up so far
1. Survey- This is a good idea and has been talked about for a long time. But to get a survey that will hold up in court is a very expensive venture. Most the property is as black and white as any backwoods KY deed can be, "most" the boundaries are pretty much known.
Just to be taking the negative side, doing this could also create a backfire, what if the line everyone thinks is ours is determined that its not.
IMO, this is something that needs to be done but only after we have the land payments taken care of or we come into extra money.
2. Smaller/more trail days- To an extent this is and always has been going on, whether by the RRGCC or other folks that just want to volunteer their time. If you are interested in helping out on the property get in touch with Josephine, Bill or myself. Just in Jan there has been over 130 man hours donated to trail/cliff/mtb trail development.
There are many jobs that would be cool to see gyms or shops signing on to fix and coming down as a group and taking care of it.
There will be more trail days this year on the PMRP, other privately owned areas and in the Forest Service organized by the RRGCC. Stay tuned for more.
You dont have to wait for a trail day to help. Take your hand saw out with you and clear the trees that have fallen in storms, take a trash bag out with you and clean up at the crag, if an area of trail is being eroded contact one of us and we will come out and together we can fix the problem.
3. Meetings in other locations- Having slide shows, presentations and some public meetings in other locations is a great idea. Though this has been tried in the past with little success.
To make this successful a few things will have to happen. The RRGCC is going to have to advertise these events more.
The biggest thing that will make a difference is its going to take you actually going to the meeting and bringing all your climbing buddies along. If you belong to a gym, shop or whatever that would want to host an event, dont wait for someone else to start something. Contact the RRGCC, talk to the location, set a date and help organize the event.
Torrent just makes sense when the season is going strong. Most weekends most of you are in the Red already or just need a small excuse to make the trip.
4. More land purchase- Hell yeah, course we need to focus on paying this one off first. So only time can tell on this one.
5. Bolt replacement and development- RRGCC has never been or will never be the bolt police. There are many private folks out there doing it, some with much publicity like Team Suck Climbing and many others that never say a word. Either way please keep up the good work and remember that no good deed goes unpunished.
On a couple JATDS routes were developed. All material was donated and participation was by those not working on trails that wanted to learn a little about bolting, not the RRGCC. Bolting has not been apart of the JATD in about 2 or 3 years and will probably not be apart of the event in the future. This is to make sure that development and rebolting is not confused with the RRGCC's mission or responsibility to the climbing community.
But the rebolting effort is a great way to be involved within the greater community, but again is not an RRGCC sponsored effort. If you would like to learn more about it contact Wes, Blake, JJ, myself and many others. We would love to have you carry some of the weight to the crag and spend your money on gear for others to steal and wear out.
6.Marketing - This is a crux that the RRGCC has always had trouble sending. IMO is one of the biggest issues we have as an organization.
But it is getting better. There are folks in place like Sandy doing facebook, Meadows with tshirts/posters, Josi with vol, Bentley going to the OR, Paul on the website and many other folks pitching in.
What needs to happen is more people need to get involved. If you have facebook and myspace, if you post on other message boards and you hear of an event, make a link and get the word out. If you go to a gym or work in a shop, print the flyers out and hang them. If your in school then make sure you flyer the whole place. This type of organization depends on its members to help create the buzz so get your wings flapping and get it done.
If you have professional experience i this field Im sure the BOD would like to chat with you.
7. Arena and Oil Crack- Sucks they are closed and yes they are working on this. As climbers and users of the property you need to remember not to focus on these two areas. There are over 500 routes open and many more being opened each month. Continue your support of the RRGCC in general and in time and IMO these will get worked out.
8. Relations with the FS. I think some folks assume that if nothing is being brought up then nothing is going on, this is not true by any means. I would love to see the man-hours that Bill and many others spent over the last 5 years talking and dealing with the LAC process. You all do not see the emails pertaining to the Funk Rock rebolt day. You do not see the conversations between the managers and myself for rerouting user trails. The list goes on and on.
I agree 100% that the RRGCC needs to have more trail days in the FS lands. This is being planned and trail days will be released. But working in the Forest requires much planning, coordination and red tape. If some of you would like to help with that aspect then please let Bill or myself know.
9. Closed BOD sessions- EVERY business, organization and family have closed door sessions and will continue to have them. Some things just cannot be discussed in public sessions.
The RRGCC is a very open organization. If you want to know something ask or look, the answer is out there.
They have plenty of open door sessions and its not their fault most of you do not show up. Hopefully this will change in the coming year.
IMO I like having appointed BOD members. Just because someone can win a community vote does not make them a good match to the skills needed within the organization at that given time. The BOD members are generally leaders in their professional world and bring those skills to the table. If anyone is truly committed to the time, putting up with the bullshit and have true skills to bring to the table then let your intentions be known. It may or not work out based on the current needs.
Sorry about the long post. It just seems when things like this get posted and we try to have real world conversations about the RRGCC , its positives and negatives the same online drama gets brought up by the same people. If you have problems that cool, lets be adults and work together to solve them.
Now back to my normally boring life....
http://www.redriveroutdoors.com
If you need to contact me , email me. Less Internet, less stress
If you need to contact me , email me. Less Internet, less stress
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anticlmber
- Posts: 3393
- Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:34 am
word, tackett. you're funny looking but you type well hidden in the woods.
and clevis, where do you get the "closed" meeting idea? yes the BOD may meet in seceret but like tackett said, "EVERY company does this." if we knew everything before it was needed to know, how much of it would leak out and cause conflicts? climbers at the crag and on the internet are no better than the old ladies at the hair salon chattering away about other people's buisness that they only know 1% about. it's for our safety they do that.
if meetings were closed then why would bob open up torrent for folks to come to the meeting. really its kind of sad that most folks come for just the climbing for that day instead of the meeting that is about climbing tomorrow and for the future. as tackett said, if you want to be involved, they will gladly accept you and do their best to make you happy to be part of something greater than just yourself.
as for SSS filling in a gap, that's funny; on many levels. she did fill a gap that nobody else wanted to and if she hadn't.....this would be indoorclimbing.F'dintheA. remember, you may not like exactly whats being done but what are you doing to help/steer it in that direction? and in the grnd scheme of it all, half as good is better than nothing at all.
and clevis, where do you get the "closed" meeting idea? yes the BOD may meet in seceret but like tackett said, "EVERY company does this." if we knew everything before it was needed to know, how much of it would leak out and cause conflicts? climbers at the crag and on the internet are no better than the old ladies at the hair salon chattering away about other people's buisness that they only know 1% about. it's for our safety they do that.
if meetings were closed then why would bob open up torrent for folks to come to the meeting. really its kind of sad that most folks come for just the climbing for that day instead of the meeting that is about climbing tomorrow and for the future. as tackett said, if you want to be involved, they will gladly accept you and do their best to make you happy to be part of something greater than just yourself.
as for SSS filling in a gap, that's funny; on many levels. she did fill a gap that nobody else wanted to and if she hadn't.....this would be indoorclimbing.F'dintheA. remember, you may not like exactly whats being done but what are you doing to help/steer it in that direction? and in the grnd scheme of it all, half as good is better than nothing at all.
Like me on facebook but hate me in real life
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Clevis Hitch
- Posts: 1461
- Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:10 pm
Wow, That sounded suprisingly like giberish. I want to thank you though for informing me that the secret meetings are for my own safety....Jackass!anticlmber wrote:word, tackett. you're funny looking but you type well hidden in the woods.
and clevis, where do you get the "closed" meeting idea? yes the BOD may meet in seceret but like tackett said, "EVERY company does this." if we knew everything before it was needed to know, how much of it would leak out and cause conflicts? climbers at the crag and on the internet are no better than the old ladies at the hair salon chattering away about other people's buisness that they only know 1% about. it's for our safety they do that.
if meetings were closed then why would bob open up torrent for folks to come to the meeting. really its kind of sad that most folks come for just the climbing for that day instead of the meeting that is about climbing tomorrow and for the future. as tackett said, if you want to be involved, they will gladly accept you and do their best to make you happy to be part of something greater than just yourself.
as for SSS filling in a gap, that's funny; on many levels. she did fill a gap that nobody else wanted to and if she hadn't.....this would be indoorclimbing.F'dintheA. remember, you may not like exactly whats being done but what are you doing to help/steer it in that direction? and in the grnd scheme of it all, half as good is better than nothing at all.
You are not a spokesperson for the CC so don't presume to have the authority to scold me and especially don't presume that I'm stupid enough to argue with you.
Like I said and like I've always said about the CC. They do things a certain way and I disagree. There's an air of elitism about the CC, Alot of people disagree with that. They are not very user-friendly and come off as arrogant. If that was a sin, I'd be in the front of the line.
As far as contributing to the climbing community, try looking outside of yourself and realize that just because you don't see me doesn't mean I'm not there......
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captain static
- Posts: 2438
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 6:05 pm
Really appreciating all of the input and comments. It will be used in determining our priorities for this year. In case any of you didn't know, I am a LEO (so is Morgain 
), so sorry if I come across bossy. When I was in college I worked for a remodelling contractor and he once commented that, "Strachan has enough ideas to keep 100 people busy". That prophecy came true last JATD.
As far as SSS stacking the deck, she had the foresight to include term limits in the RRGCC's bylaws. Charlie and Dwight are the only SSS era BOD left and Dwight is stepping down.
To do all the things climbers want us to do we really need more volunteer involvement. We're open to any suggestions that would encourage such.
Back to the Bat Cave,
Static out
), so sorry if I come across bossy. When I was in college I worked for a remodelling contractor and he once commented that, "Strachan has enough ideas to keep 100 people busy". That prophecy came true last JATD.As far as SSS stacking the deck, she had the foresight to include term limits in the RRGCC's bylaws. Charlie and Dwight are the only SSS era BOD left and Dwight is stepping down.
To do all the things climbers want us to do we really need more volunteer involvement. We're open to any suggestions that would encourage such.
Back to the Bat Cave,
Static out
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh
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Clevis Hitch
- Posts: 1461
- Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:10 pm
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Clevis Hitch
- Posts: 1461
- Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:10 pm
The Age of Aquarius is coming for you Pigsteak
[edited and copied from a True North post 7/15/03]...
The meeting did have some moments of enlightenments combined with two hours of typical babble. Here are some points I found interesting:
1) It is my understanding the forest service plan most likely to be approved will place more emphasis on �recreation management�. The term �management� and what it implies will be greatly influenced by the interpretation and view points of the �authority having jurisdiction at the local level� which for the most part will be the District Ranger
....
Once this is approved, The District is planning to hire an individual to facilitate the impact evaluation process to determine if a climbing area is to remain open or to be closed. Keep in mind that this is NOT the actual evaluation, but designing the �test� itself. The USFS has allocated and budgeted two years for this procedure. Yes that�s right two years. This means that no new routes will be approved for the next 2.5 years. No existing routes will be officially approved and grand-fathered into the system for 2.5 years.
....
[copied and edited from a 6/12/03 posting WSJ article]...
National Policy
The bolt controversy now is coming to a head. An interagency panel of
federal land managers has agreed to a common, national "fixed anchor" policy for wilderness areas, completing an administrative process that started after the U.S. Forest Service tried to ban new bolts at Idaho's Sawtooth National Forest in 1998.
......
SO.
This is really old news but for me provides some continuity to the RRGCC's roots, purpose and successes...and future.
I just incidentally found these so there is probably numerous nauseating threads with more, probably interesting history too.
I think any future success is tightly dependent upon the clarity of vision, so concrete goals instead of abstract missions is preferable. Knowing a little history may help avoid re-fighting the same battles.
[edited and copied from a True North post 7/15/03]...
The meeting did have some moments of enlightenments combined with two hours of typical babble. Here are some points I found interesting:
1) It is my understanding the forest service plan most likely to be approved will place more emphasis on �recreation management�. The term �management� and what it implies will be greatly influenced by the interpretation and view points of the �authority having jurisdiction at the local level� which for the most part will be the District Ranger
....
Once this is approved, The District is planning to hire an individual to facilitate the impact evaluation process to determine if a climbing area is to remain open or to be closed. Keep in mind that this is NOT the actual evaluation, but designing the �test� itself. The USFS has allocated and budgeted two years for this procedure. Yes that�s right two years. This means that no new routes will be approved for the next 2.5 years. No existing routes will be officially approved and grand-fathered into the system for 2.5 years.
....
[copied and edited from a 6/12/03 posting WSJ article]...
National Policy
The bolt controversy now is coming to a head. An interagency panel of
federal land managers has agreed to a common, national "fixed anchor" policy for wilderness areas, completing an administrative process that started after the U.S. Forest Service tried to ban new bolts at Idaho's Sawtooth National Forest in 1998.
......
SO.
This is really old news but for me provides some continuity to the RRGCC's roots, purpose and successes...and future.
I just incidentally found these so there is probably numerous nauseating threads with more, probably interesting history too.
I think any future success is tightly dependent upon the clarity of vision, so concrete goals instead of abstract missions is preferable. Knowing a little history may help avoid re-fighting the same battles.