Hey Sandbagger

Post by **caribe** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:54 pm

70% of this thread is just spray.

Post by **rjackson** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:17 am

OK Ray, would you mind rationalizing your latest down grades? I mean, seriously? Is it April 1st somewhere? Was it Freaky Friday on Tuesday? Am I a victim of a backwards universe?

Dude I've always respected your opinions, but ...

Post by **aaronkupferer** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:38 am

maybe he's been talking with adam henry

Post by **pigsteak** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:42 am

rjackson wrote:OK Ray, would you mind rationalizing your latest down grades? I mean, seriously? Is it April 1st somewhere? Was it Freaky Friday on Tuesday? Am I a victim of a backwards universe?

Dude I've always respected your opinions, but ...

shoot, if he had asked odub, they'd all be another number lower....

Post by **rjackson** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:05 am

Man, this has been one weird week. I'm just glad I got my lottery ticket cause ... wait, er, yeah, phew, got it, that was close ... strange things are afoot, strange things indeed.

I suspect I'll awake from my antihistamine stupor any moment now.

Post by **Jeff** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:26 pm

A sure fire way to get something going on here in an otherwise slow week for rrc.

Post by **512OW** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:59 pm

Wow. I'm sorry I missed all this.

Ok... where to start?

First off, the term "soft" doesn't mean that its necessarily a lower grade. It just means that its low in that grade. Wes, by definintion, a "soft" 12b, is still harder than a "hard" 12a.

As far as Ray not being expert enough to change the ratings.... wrong. He's the one writing the book, so he can do what he wants. Lena was right on... people struggling at the grade often lack the techniques and skills to do it the "easiest" way possible, which is how its graded. Ray has done them multiple times. He wins. Deal with it.

Those of you worrying that the Red is "soft" are silly. Every area has soft and hard ratings. Not to mention, it depends on the climber. Joshua Tree is supposedly really stout... everything I got on seemed about a letter grade or two overgraded. So what? They invented the damn grading system... maybe they are the right ones.

I love a good argument, but changing the ratings of a climb doesn't change its quality. It also doesn't change the challenge. If you'd rather just climb a number than meet your biggest challenge, then Ray may have indeed pissed on your birthday. Good luck with that.

Post by **512OW** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:03 pm

In closing, I'll say this...

I've traveled all over this country to climb, and the ratings at the Red seem to be right on in comparison.

In my travels, I've amassed a nice guidebook collection. I assure you, our guidebook is in the top 5, if not the best book, in the country. Period. And with the number of climbs and the rate of growth at the Red, I can't imagine the time put into it.

Thanks, Ray.

Post by **vertical1** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:17 pm

Wow. What a heated debate. Of the 25 or so guidebooks I own, I agree, the red guide is by far the best. With that said, there will always be errors. Routes that are soft and those that are hard. Some warrant a chande in a later edition. I do wonder why the debate tends to stay in the upper 11/lower 12 range. I am a lower 12 climber. I am not the one to decide if a 12 a should be downgraded to an 11d. But I also feel that a solid mid 13 climber can't make that distinction either. Whereas, I oncited Momma Cindy, 11c at Muir Valley. After climbing it, I knew it was closer to 11a or b. Sure I want to claim an 11c onsite, but I honestly have to admit it is not. Comparatively I climbed happy trails 10b at the Gallary. Also not a 10b, probably 10d. But I am still thankful to have a guide that is as good as the one for the red. I like the online voting system, but even there, people will intentionally put a much lower or much higher rating than they really think just to bring the average more inline with what they feel. That is also nonsense. People will rate a consensus 12a climb as 11b just to try to bring down the rating. Thats assinine. Anyway, Thanks Ray for the guide, and I cant wait to get the 3rd edition.

Post by **rjackson** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:01 pm

Well, I awoke to find it wasn't a dream...

When you get finished crushing whatever line you're on out there Ray, I just gotta know the theory behind Rock Wars. Or we'll catch up at a crag one day next year.

By the way, as a print designer I've scrutinized a ton of guides also and from more viewpoints than most, and I've always appreciated the fact that our (Ray's) guide book matches the world class climbing we enjoy. Like telling your Mom you love her, I guess it can't be said enough.