Red tagged routes in Muir

[weber]

Just a reminder that routes with red flags or ribbons are new climbs being developed (projects.) Usually, quickdraws are left up on the hangers until the project is completed, sent, and opened to climbers.

Please do not take these draws. They are NOT booty. Several have been taken recently, and not on easy routes by newbies who don't know any better. 5.11/5.12 climbers should know the drill.

Thanks.

[Andrew]

that sucks, karma will get them.

[clif]

ethics and climbing? as of earlier this week, nobody cares.

[pigsteak]

ethics and climbing? as of earlier this week, nobody cares.

thanks for the reminder clif..and if you'll notice, nowhere is there a mention of ethics. what has happen in this case is theft.

andrews platitude of karma is nice but rarely holds true. crappy people get away with stuff for entire lifetimes.

[blakeleathers]

throw rocks at people doing this when you see them taking the draws in action?

[clif]

well, that's just an opportunity too good to miss...stealing draws when it's ethical.

[possum2082]

forgive my possible ignorance...

what are the ethics of reserving a climb for yourself to redpoint when someone else could probably do it?

is that just the equipper's "right"?

what about cracks where the f.a. was the person or group with the guts and ability to knock it out? in those cases, it's not the person who sees it first. i guess face is different.

confused.

[pigsteak]

possum, any line I have bolted and you feel the need to do the FA, just give me a shout. we can work out a finacial arrangemet where we trade some of your guts and ability for some of my sweat equity and hard spent cash for hardware.

win-win that way.

and if you spend time and money on equipping, and I want the FA, I'll give you the same courtesy. fair enough?

otherwise, please see about 25 other threads on here which cover the topic over and over and over.

want to hear a true story that happened? I literally had just rapped down 10 minutes prior from bolting a line..was thirsty and hungry and needed to refuel. some dude walks up and says "cool line, is it open yet?" no I said, just fininshed it. cool, I'll just wait here until you send it next go, he says. I informed him it was at my maximum level, and would be taking me half dozen goes to work out the moves, and it may not be open until the following weekend, or later since I had work obligations and a wedding to attend the coming few weekends.

was I selfish and rude to not allow him the FA?

[MacGyver]

You put all the work into it, you should have the right to decide who gets the FA.

[anticlmber]

clif, just a quick hit.

rights- Rights are entitlements (not) to perform certain actions or be in certain states, or entitlements that others (not) perform certain actions or be in certain states. stanford encyclopidia of philosophy; (2009)

ethics- the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc. dictionary.com; (2008)

norms- s a : a set standard of development or achievement usually derived from the average or median achievement of a large group b : a pattern or trait taken to be typical in the behavior of a social group c : a widespread or usual practice, procedure, or custom <standing ovations became the merriam webster; (2008)

mores- folkways of central importance accepted without question and embodying the fundamental moral views of a group. merriam webster; (2008)

YES the equipper has the right to ask for time, YES the ethics of the "community" (whatever the fuck that is anymore) allow him that time, YES the norms say that he has that time to use, YES you are a dick questioning this in the least; if you need clarification see above definition, and finally FUCK YOUR STUPID ASS WITH A DILLY BAR.

and YES i know i am typing in ALL caps.........