Can you.....

[rustyvasectomy]

http://www.rockandice.com/inthemag.php? ... =accidents

"· Rescue teams and climbing schools consistently use the figure-8 for a very logical reason: It’s a safer knot. It stays tied a whole lot better, as well as being slightly stronger."

[Saxman]

Since NOTHING is foolproof, you should quit climbing immediately.

[JR]

I bet the people that put their shoes on standing climb at a lower grade than those that sit. Most of the standing shoe put-er on-ers would be considered gumballs.

I bet the people that tie a figure eight climb at a lower grade than those that tie some form of bowline. Many of the climbers that would never try a double bowline could be considered gumballs.

[Savage]

A partially tied figure eight with no keeper knot will hold.... thus, figure eight is safer. done.

During each step of the knot tying process, there is a probability something will go wrong. It may be very low, but there is still a probability. By adding more and more complexity to your knot, the probabilty of doing something wrong gets bigger and bigger. simple math...

partially tied 8 will hold, huh? I'll be happy to belay you for a massive whip on that knot. And how do you figure its more complicated to use the bowline? people have been tying it for centuries and I can do it a hell of a lot faster than an 8.

You are, for once, correct on the 8 being slightly stronger. Congrats, you made a valid point!

And the true analysis of this link you posted: She obviously failed to tie her keeper knot successfully. I have tied into plenty of new ropes and have never had slippage.

[Meadows]

She didn't fail to do it successfully - she just didn't do it! She also failed to cinch it.

That is, if she even tied a knot. Yes, I know she claims she did and tested it, but belayers who drop their climbers tend to claim they did everything correctly. Yet, that climber is still getting hauled out. Blame is way easier than responsibility anyway.

A bowline used properly for climbing will do its job. It's has been field tested many times by myself and by my climbing partners, as well as a plethora of other people. No one is claiming it's safer.

[GWG]

A partially tied figure eight with no keeper knot will hold.... thus, figure eight is safer. done.

You gotta be kiddin' me. What's your definition of "a partially tied figure eight"?

When retracing the figure eight knot, the end is drawn through the knot 3 times. After a climber fell 25' due to an improperly tied figure 8, we did a series of tests at our climbing gym to see at what point the knot would slip. By no means was this a real scientific test. We tied the figure 8 to various degrees of completion and then fell on it from a distance of about 6'. The rope used was a newer rope. Here are the results:

-Passed through the knot once: failed every time - 5 attempts
-Passed through the knot twice, (not dressed): failed 4 out of 5 attempts
-Passed through the knot twice, (dressed): failed 2 out of 5 attempts
-Passed through the knot thrice, (dressed or not dressed): failed 0 out of 5 attempts

So in the case of the climber who fell, it is possible that he tied a partial figure 8 follow thru knot. The conclusion of this "investigation" showed that it was a case of an improperly tied knot AND a breakdown in a recommended process of double checking each other before starting a climb.

[Savage]

well put, steph!

[JR]

Slip on your Mythos standing up. Rock that figure 8. Then try to get off the ground on AWOL. "I wish I was tall so I could get started!"

[Basta916]

put on your climbing shoes???? like at the crag?
I have seen planty folks do it when they get just under a climb..... what a bunch of Gumbies...
Real climbers put there shoes on as soon as they get tent up, at Miggies on a Friday evening.
Then harness goes on , and stays on, till you get home( the look you get at gas station, people know you are good ). That way everyone that sees you knows you are serious about climbing.
And all this talk about Bowline.....WTF...... single bow, double bow......I tie triple bowline ( heard its three times stronger than plain one)...

Keep on climbing strong, and if any of you can help me get some of ....what do they call them....
haxes and cammes ( or something like it) ... but I need nice ones..... like polished.... so they shine..... THX

[Yasmeen]

anyone who uses a bowline is just trying to be "different".

Agreed. If you could please comment loudly on my individualism if you ever see me with my bowline (I paint it neon green to contrast with the rest of my rope, so that people will notice that it's not a figure eight), it would help me accomplish this goal of being "different".