why are trad ethics stupid?

[rustyvasectomy]

trad ethics rule! i love how its OK to have shitty fixed gear such as a permanent stopper or a rusty piton. however its not ok to replace those pieces with more secure bolts. if you are going to deface the rock by leaving fixed gear, why not make it gear that will actually hold you? There is not skill, merit or advantage to be gained from clipping a shitty fixed piece. Its just a time bomb waiting to explode.

[camhead]

Not to mention that many traddies will bitch and moan about aggressively cleaned and manufactured sport routes, and not realize that most El Cap free routes rely heavily on pin scars.

One of the really cool things about the RRG's trad is that most all of the cracks have escaped damage by pin scars. What might All That Glitters look like if it had been located in the Valley, or even at the Gunks?

[anticlmber]

"what would all that glitters look like if it had pitons smashed into it?"

a big pile of sand with impact craters all around it.

as soon as you say its ok to replace fixed gear with a bolt than you open the door to just bolt craks.
why not just cut the wires or some how remove the offending piece?

[ahab]

There is not skill, merit or advantage to be gained from clipping a shitty fixed piece.

then don't clip it.

however its not ok to replace those pieces with more secure bolts.

i've heard of a climbing style that might suite you. scin, or something? anyway, you should try it. i hear they put shiny & secure bolts all the way to the top!!!

[bazoqop]

What's with all the trad hate?

Some folks like clipping "time bombs" or enjoy putting in pro themselves..




Grow some balls man..

[rjackson]

I don't think you're talking about trad ethics, but rather wilderness ethics? As determined by the Forest Service?

Most of the climbers I know who climb trad have no problems with bolted anchors, and secretly wish more lines had them. They're also some of the safer climbers I know and are quick to yank a manky anchor, be it a suspect nut or sun-bleached webbing.

And I don't think adding anchors will open trad lines to bolting, unless there are so many face holds in the general proximity that it's already been ravaged as a sport climb.

[anticlmber]

anchors are one thing, the "fixed" gear that has been welded into place is the argument i make. how will we know it really is a time-bomb unless, we test it.

[kek-san]

Isn't is all sort of academic. Don't fall and then all pro (good, bad, time bomb, bolt, etc.) is good.

[Shamis]

The reason old pitons typically are not replaced is because they are left over from a time when it was considered ok to leave pitons. At old trad area's you see them all over, and they aren't replaced because they usually don't need to be used.

Modern trad gear often makes routes safe with removable gear, when they used to require pitons. The pitons are only there because nobody has bothered to take them out, and they might offer some aid to the pumped out gumby who ran out of gear.

As for bolted anchor's on trad climbs, I think they make a lot of sense if the alternative is a tree. I used to climb at the gunks a lot about 15 years ago, and now when I go back, I see that many of the trees we used to use as rap anchors are now dead. Bolts save trees.

[gripster]

i've heard of a climbing style that might suite you. scin, or something? anyway, you should try it. i hear they put shiny & secure bolts all the way to the top!!!

yeah it is this new amusement park style climbing, i think they call it chuffing? anyway, it is much safer than those spring-a-ma-jigs that crazy trad climbers jam into cracks and pockets.