Safety

[Shamis]

Gary, I love you to death, but you are being an idiot. Think link between break end and break hand. Do not count on the grigri to autolock, period-- or any other device for that matter.

Have you ever seen an accident involving a gri-gri? If so, what happened?

Obviously, if the climber isn't moving its worth having the brake hand on. I was specifically referring to a lead fall, in which case, based on the statistically insignificant sample size I've witnessed, I've seen 3 accidents that all would have been prevented by simply letting go.

[Shamis]

Well there's a video on this page from the petzl site. They describe 2 methods. The classic method involves taking your break hand mostly off
the rope, if not completely off.

http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/belay-devices/grigri

The 'new' way does not. However, I have to say everything looks easy on brand new ropes in clean gri-gri's.

The issue I've been specifically referring to this whole time (I guess I should've tried to explain it from the start) is when you take either a novice belayer, or a veteran atc user and give them a gri-gri. If they are using the 'classic' way, which is what everybody used to do when they first came out, then if the climber fell while you were feeding slack via the pinch technique described in that video, your hand is on the device itself. The natural instinct at this point of a veteran atc user, or a new belayer is to squeeze hard with the brake hand. Unfortunately, the brake hand is on the gri-gri, and squeezing results in the leader falling rapidly towards the ground. The 'proper' thing to do is to rapidly slide your break hand back up to the rope. But I find that it is easier, at least at first, to just tell them to let go when in doubt. If they let go, on a normal lead fall, it is guaranteed to hold, unless the device itself fails, which I've never seen or heard of. Then the belayer can put his hand back on the brake line, and everybody is alive and well.

I use the 'classic way' although I find myself having to do the pinch to feed slack nearly all the time on anything other than a new rope, or a really thin rope. Sometimes I'll try to just hold the bottom of the device which seems to prevent it from cinching while feeding slack, but not in the event of a fall. This is, of course, when I'm not busy letting go with both hands and turning my back on the leader.

[der uber]

holy shit people, are we really debating whether or not it's important to keep your hand on the break line with a gri-gri?

ok, so the thing does a pretty good job of locking up, but why take a chance when it's not that hard to just keep your hand on the freaking rope?

I hope these people who are so nonchalant about it aren't passing this attitude off on new users of the device. err on the side of caution.

I will say this though. there are times where the climber is hanging and I have a sec to grab a drink or the like, and I have either done so with rope still in hand (although I'm holding a bottle at the same time), or in rarer cases, I wrap the rope around my hand, or tuck it under my arm. That's all rare, and for a short moment, and usually when I've communicated to the climber to hang out for a moment while I perform said acction.

Anyone have stories or comments about other safety issues, or accidents not involving a gri-gri?

* edit - I'm talking less about gri-gri usage when aying out slack, and more about when you're just standing around while the climber is hanging, or in between clips. I haven't used whatever petzels new belay technique is but I need to at least review it.

[Brentucky]

no accidents, but i've fallen and had my belayer pulled in to the rock to smack their head pretty good. they had an atc and held on, but i'm all for a grigri myself. and yes, keep your damn hand on the brake line just like it's an atc. like der uber said, it's really not that hard ya lazy bastards!

if you must use an atc to belay me though, i really have no problem with that. i just "prefer" a grigri due to the small possibility of things happening where you fall and the belayer somehow gets knocked out (rocks, bang head, seizure, whatever). with the grigri down below (and an appropriate belayer using it) i think i've got a better chance of not getting knocked out dead myself.

[Canuck]

Obviously, if the climber isn't moving its worth having the brake hand on. I was specifically referring to a lead fall, in which case, based on the statistically insignificant sample size I've witnessed, I've seen 3 accidents that all would have been prevented by simply letting go.

My near-accident was a lead fall. And, yes, statistically insignificant, but statistics seem pretty unimportant should that one-in-a-(gazillion) case of the grigri not locking happen to someone you know.

I am not blaming the tool. The grigri rocks. Just mind the brake; that is all I am saying. There really is no debate.

My sentiments exactly.

[caribe]

Well there's a video on this page from the petzl site. They describe 2 methods. The classic method involves taking your break hand mostly off the rope, if not completely off.
http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/belay-devices/grigri

Gary the video is clear. I am tripping that you think you can use it make your point.

The video tells me NOT to take the hand from the rope. My instinct is to use the brake end of the rope as the brake if the climber falls; anyone who has used an atc has the same instinct. When I am pinching the grigri momentarily to feed rope fast, my eye is in contact wtih the situation (I am not looking away). AT ALL other times you and I should secure the break end of the rope with our hand or a mule knot.

[Meadows]

i noticed that when i lowered her to a bold so she could get the draw, if i did not keep my brake hand on, the rope kept slipping. i guess that is because she does not weigh enough to make it lock under those conditions or something (?)

Usually if she doesn't weigh enough (or the anchors are threaded incorrectly), you'd have to feed the rope through the gri to lower.

[Savage]

I nearly decked from 40' in an incident in which a gri-gri did not lock up. The rope was 10.2. The gri-gri was about a month old and was loaded correctly. I weighed around 145lbs then. My belayer did not have either hand on the gri-gri to begin with. Neither he, I, nor another experienced climber watching could see anything that impeded the cam from locking up.
I did not deck (stopped about 5' off the ground) because my belayer's only instinct was to grab the brake end of the rope (8 years rappelling for the army and 2 years belaying only on an atc probably helped with that instinct).

The chance a gri-gri will not lock (which, imho, is not the same thing as "fail") is tiny. But it's not any more difficult to use a gri-gri with your brake hand on the rope. So why not keep it on as an extra measure of safety?

THANK YOU for sharing this!! This helps drive home my point. Stuff doesnt always happen like it should. Freak accidents can happen to anyone. I just want my fellow climbers to be safe. Its a tight-knit community and it sucks when we lose someone, why make it be from a preventable accident?...

[Shamis]

The video tells me NOT to take the hand from the rope. My instinct is to use the brake end of the rope as the brake if the climber falls; anyone who has used an atc has the same instinct. When I am pinching the grigri momentarily to feed rope fast, my eye is in contact wtih the situation (I am not looking away). AT ALL other times you and I should secure the break end of the rope with our hand or a mule knot.

I guess what I'm saying, is that with a non experienced gri-gri user, I trust petzl's engineering more than I trust the belayer's instincts.

[TankAzz]

good point, meadows... not sure what the deal is.
maybe my gri-gri truly is getting too old....