Safety

Post by **cliftongifford** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:54 pm

buy a faders sum and don't worry about it. gri-gri's suck.

Post by **TankAzz** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:10 pm

gri-gris can definitely fail. yasi, sorry to make you uncomfortable, but when i was lowering yas off herd the other weekend (she was cleaning), i noticed that when i lowered her to a bold so she could get the draw, if i did not keep my brake hand on, the rope kept slipping. i guess that is because she does not weigh enough to make it lock under those conditions or something (?) not sure, but it freaked me out a bit. i've always gotten worried when belayers don't keep a hand on the brake when climbers are climbing or resting. it's such an easy thing to do. tying off to let go is another safety precaution.

petzl does have a nice video demonstrating how to belay; unfortunately, i have not been able to master it well enough to make the change when climbing outside (hard to switch up what you're used to!) however, it does make sense to belay like that, where you always have a backup in case something goes wrong in a "failproof" system.

Post by **captain static** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:30 pm

I don't know how this became a discussion about the Gri Gri but I think anyone is mistaken to blame the tool. Many accidents are due to miscommunication, lack of focus, or unfamiliarity with a specific situation. For some sobering but informative reads I would suggest http://www.amazon.com/Playing-Real-Stor ... 0976052563 or http://www.amazon.com/Accidents-North-A ... 1933056061.

Post by **Boonda** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:25 pm

I'm glad so many people have responded to this topic. I think the debate between gri-gri and atc could go on for quite awhile. I definitely have my own personal opinions about it, but what it comes down to is whatever way you prefer, do it, and climb with people who you trust. But I really just want to reinforce my initial purpose of this post. BE SAFE..and while you're at it, try not to be an asshole, unless of course, the person you are being an asshole to deserves it. Now...just to prevent any uproar at my last comment, that isn't directed at anyone imparticular, just thought I'd add it in there while I'm spouting advice.

Post by **schwagpad** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:30 pm

same with any sport that has inherent risk. skateboarding, roller blading, atvs , sking and climbing. all of these ride roller coasters of popularity, with more #'s bring more accidents.

I've always thought that climbing is fundamentally different. 1) The much greater potential for life-threatening mistakes. 2) The static nature of most risks i.e. mistakes tend to be made based on a wrong decision made in a controlled environment rather than a bad split decision at high speeds. 3) The complete lack of control over serious environmental risks (weather and rock fall)

So you simultaneously take on a greater base level of risk, but your ability to completely control most of the worst risks gives you a responsibility to acquire sufficient knowledge and make careful decisions. Every activity is somewhere on this spectrum, but climbing seems like quite an extreme case in several respects.

Post by **pkananen** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:32 pm

schwagpad wrote:
same with any sport that has inherent risk. skateboarding, roller blading, atvs , sking and climbing. all of these ride roller coasters of popularity, with more #'s bring more accidents.
I've always thought that climbing is fundamentally different. 1) The much greater potential for life-threatening mistakes. 2) The static nature of most risks i.e. mistakes tend to be made based on a wrong decision made in a controlled environment rather than a bad split decision at high speeds. 3) The complete lack of control over serious environmental risks (weather and rock fall)

So you simultaneously take on a greater base level of risk, but your ability to completely control most of the worst risks gives you a responsibility to acquire sufficient knowledge and make careful decisions. Every activity is somewhere on this spectrum, but climbing seems like quite an extreme case in several respects.

Totally agree.

Post by **Shamis** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:34 pm

Canuck wrote:I'm a physicist with engineering background. I'd been climbing for 10 years at the time. It surprised the hell out of me. But it happened. I suspect (but can't prove) why the cam didn't lock. If anyone wants a long discussion of forces and angles and other good physics-y stuff, I'd be more than happy to explain it in person.
My point remains: why not keep your brake-hand on?

I'd love to hear your explanation of why it failed.

As for the brake hand, when I'm not doing anything, I usually keep the brake hand on. Occasionally I'll have my wife belay me on stuff. She's not really a climber, and has very little belay experience (she's never used an atc either), and I always tell her that in the event of a fall, if anything weird happens just to let go. It works well for me. But considering how heavy I am its pretty hard for the gri-gri not to lock up. My only real concern with her has always been that she'd somehow pinch the device and prevent it from locking.

I have seen some weird things happen with really light climbers, like somebody above mentioned yasi wasn't heavy enough to make it lock while hanging, and I have seen that mild slippage when somebody really light is on the other end, but I never let it go much further than that. I'd be curious to know what would happen if they sped up. On a slick rope I guess it could keep accelerating.

That's the other question for you, how old was the rope you used when you nearly hit the ground? Was it brand new?

Post by **Curmudgeon** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:27 pm

Here we go again ...

In the days of yore, it was the highest compliment your partner could
pay you by letting you belay them. It meant that they totally trusted
their ass to your hands. Placements break, Bees swarm, Shit happens,
but a good belay can halt most tragedy.

It amazes me how peeps that do 50 foot belays in gyms think they
are ready to do a hangin belay 200 feet up. Dang ...

Above all, check everything three times and have your partner check it too.

Climb safe, so you will reach my age safely.

Cliff

Post by **caribe** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:41 am

Shamis wrote:
Savage wrote:I have seen way too many misuse a grigri, and yes, even local guys that climb hard. I see people go hands-free and put their hands in their pockets while the climber shakes on a jug. Just because a grigri is SUPPOSED to auto-lock, doesnt mean that is WILL!!!
Unless your rope is ridiculously thin (probably less than 9.0) The gri-gri WILL lock. A heavily worn gri-gri can allow a slick rope to start to slowly slip, but any fall will cause it to lock.

The only reason to worry about the break hand on a gri-gri is when you have it threaded backwards, in which case you can still hold a fall if you treat the gri-gri like an ATC. In fact, the only time I've ever seen gri-gri incidents (I've seen 3 people get dropped while being belayed on a gri gri) is when the belayer panics and squeezes the device. Gri-Gri's are probably safest when you just let go.

Gary, I love you to death, but you are being an idiot. Think link between break end and break hand. Do not count on the grigri to autolock, period-- or any other device for that matter.

Post by **caribe** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:52 am

captain static wrote:. . . about the Gri Gri but I think anyone is mistaken to blame the tool.

I am not blaming the tool. The grigri rocks. Just mind the brake; that is all I am saying. There really is no debate.