Bolt the cracks and stop hiding...

[512OW]

Route finding, effective gear placements and self control is what makes Trad climbing more difficult than Sport. When a bolt is placed this difficulty is erased or reduced significantly. Unless you are saying a bolters efforts are no effort at all.

Only if you suck at route finding, effective gear placements, and self control. Thats the same as saying that hand jamming is what makes hand cracks harder. Sure, if you suck at it... but not if you're good at it. Getting good at ALL aspects of climbing is what makes a complete climber, not claiming that trad is harder.

When I was a traddie, I was terrified on sport routes, and I could barely climb 5.11 sport, long after I'd climbed 12+ cracks. It was only because I sucked at it... not because it was "harder".

[pigsteak]

and freak, it is a crack cut right into the wall...are you folks blind? you mean to tell me you can't find the route? um, sir, it is the crack right in front of you. no seriously, that crack RIGHT there is this route. I am not kidding. yup, follow that fissure and I bet it will end at some chains or a tree with colored slings. it is sort of like driving a car...stay to the right of the dotted line, and you can consider yourself a race car driver. just like trad climbing. hang some janglies, and you are in the game.

now sport climbing, that is a different story. we chop bolts, or at least hammer them in, when it leads us down the wrong path. if we have to clip off some micro crimp, we blame our failure on the bolt placement. yup, those dang bolts make route finding way more difficult.

[TradMike]

It's very easy to get off route on a big trad climbs. There's no chalk and false trails that can take you seriously off route before you even realize what happened. Route finding is not easy in some trad climbing areas. Clipping a bolt and following a bolt line is very easy in comparison.

Some gear placement do take time to work out and they may be in the crux or you don't get gear type of situation. I don't know many sport routes you have to clip a bolt from the crux or run it out because you can't clip it. It's a much harder mind game to climb well above your last piece and a lot of Trad climbs require mandatory runouts. I don't see many Sport climbs with runouts. Retro bolts bring the climbing difficulty down even more.

The only time a 5.x sport climb = the same difficulty as a 5.x trad climb is if you pre-place all the trad gear ahead of time.

Not to say that there is anything wrong with Sport.

[pigsteak]

tradmike, see jumbo love video. sharma skips many bolts thru the crux.

[512OW]

It's very easy to get off route on a big trad climbs. There's no chalk and false trails that can take you seriously off route before you even realize what happened. Route finding is not easy in some trad climbing areas. Clipping a bolt and following a bolt line is very easy in comparison.

Some gear placement do take time to work out and they may be in the crux or you don't get gear type of situation. I don't know many sport routes you have to clip a bolt from the crux or run it out because you can't clip it. It's a much harder mind game to climb well above your last piece and a lot of Trad climbs require mandatory runouts. I don't see many Sport climbs with runouts. Retro bolts bring the climbing difficulty down even more.

The only time a 5.x sport climb = the same difficulty as a 5.x trad climb is if you pre-place all the trad gear ahead of time.

Not to say that there is anything wrong with Sport.

Several dumb statements. First, you should do more sport climbs. Bolts get skipped all the time because they can't efficiently be clipped. Far more than I see runouts happen on "trad" routes by "trad" climbers.

The only time a 5.x sport climb doesn't equal the same difficulty as a 5.x trad climb is if X climber lacks the skills to equate the difficulties. Yes, some routes have hard to place gear. Everytime I've ever encountered one, the grade already reflects that difficulty.

You said "routefinding is not easy...". Exactly. Get better at it. Why not, instead of saying "this is harder because of these reasons", say "I'm just going to get better at this so it doesn't seem so hard and I don't have to make up lame excuses"?

Dave Mcleod just repeated James Pearsons "Walk of Life", which James gave E12 7a. Dave said it was E9 6c. He found safe protection where James thought it was a deathfall. Dave also said it was a much easier physical climb, not even requiring one to be fit. James is a world class climber... and he will undoubtedly learn from this. For you to say that a certain "difficulty" should add to the grade is ridiculous unless you are an absolute expert at said skill.... and only indicates that you have alot more to learn than you think.

[Jay]

From easiest to hardest:

Cavers (doesn't count against my 7 because its hardly even climbing)
Roadside Attraction
RockWars
Return of Geoff Beene
Inhibitor
B3
Mr. Get It On Jones
Welcome to Ole Kentuck

If I had to choose a 2nd 7:
Autumn
Andromeda Strain
Where Lizards Dare
Rebar
Thunder Chicken
Fibrulator Direct
Hidden Dragon

Sweet! A ready-made list of the first cracks we should bolt at the Red, endorsed by Mr. Ethics himself!

(Of course Kris, after the Access Fund reads this, shits a brick, and puts pressure on the U.S. climbing scene, you'll have to give up your Maxim endorsement...)

That's OK, though, maybe Hilti will toss a hammer drill your way for cheap.

[512OW]

If it were legal, I'd say bolt em. Who cares? The Access Fund, nor Maxim, would care. It happens everywhere... Yosemite, Vedauwoo, Joshua Tree. Why should here be different?

[512OW]

Now... of course, much would be lost by the bolting of classic cracks. However, judging by the excuses introduced by todays average "trad" climber, more would be gained.

[L Day]

We don't give a fuck what the average climber thinks. Much less the average sport climber.

[512OW]

We don't give a fuck what the average climber thinks. Much less the average sport climber.

Its not about what they think. Its what they do. All this "trad is harder" bullshit is just that... bullshit. Nearly every RRG climber who calls themselves a "trad climber", but climbs harder when clipping bolts than when on gear, is lacking in trad skills. I am... but I'm aware of it. I don't train for it. I'm just trying to make everyone else aware so that trad climbers can stop looking like idiots by using it as an excuse.