Now how am I going to say the figure 8 is just for gumbies and trad climbers after this?
I like the double bowline, since it is eaiser to untie after a fall, and I fall. A. Lot.
For fun, when I am on the road or meet up with random people to climb with, I ask them if my "8 looks good", and a surprising number say yes...
Wes
schwagpad wrote:Don't tie a bowline. It may be just as strong as a figure-eight, but less people know the knot so your belayer is less likely to catch your mistake if you mess it up. Also it is less robust than a figure-eight in that it's strength is completely compromised if you misthread it, whereas a figure-eight has a chance of still being strong. It is human error that is always the problem, not the knot itself. I recommend using the knot that is more likely to prevent human error, and to not be disastrous if there is human error.
I'm not clear which knot people are talking about when they say "double bowline". I've heard it used to describe:
a) a knot starting with a single loop in the standing line; the leading end goes through the harness; then the up the hole, around the tree, down the hole bit; then reweaving back through harness and around the single loop. The leading end comes out parallel to the standing line
b) a knot starting with a two loops in the standing line, then through the harness, up the hole (of the two loops), around the tree, down the hole.
c) a knot starting with a bight of rope, which is tied as a single bowline. Then the bight is clipped to the loop of rope that's going through the harness. I've only seen this twice, but it just added to my confusion. This, I guess, is useful for tying into the middle of the rope. It differs from a bowline-on-a-bight in that the leading bight isn't passed over the standing end.
So, for those discussing "double bowlines", which version are you talking about?
Many moons ago I fell multiple times on some 5.11 at torrent. When it came time for me to clean the route I could not untie the rope and I sat there a while trying. I finally had to lower and cut the rope off my harness. After that pigsteak showed me the double bowline(version b) and now I use that while sport climbing only. IMO a bowline is a knot that needs supervision, which is why I only tie it while I am on a short sport route especially when I know I will fall...a lot. Any other time I use an 8.
I've never trusted a bowline, unless it's around my waist ( don't laugh, I learned to climb tied into a bowline around my waist {later a bowline-on-a-coil..} )
i agree about the double checkin thing; lots of my partners tie a bowline or maybe double bowline and i just leave it to them to know if it's right even though i'm a double-checkin machine when i have the opportunity.
i learned the 8 and that's what i've stuck with, but i have started putting the end back through the 8 to help with the cinchin up so tight on a hard fall (like if pigsteak is giving you catch)
efil lanrete... i enjoy the sound, but in truth i find this seductively backward idea to be quite frightening
there is no "right" not to use
tie whatever will hold you up there and you are comfortable with
don't bitch at other people about their knot (unless it's a knot you are familiar with and know it's tied wrong)
"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation." Thoreau
[quote="stix"]schwag...you're wrong in that the bowline is bout 5-10% weaker than an 8. as for it being weaker the margin of strength in the rope is so great that this is not a factor. i, also, have never seen a belayer catch an improperly tied knot that a climber was about to climb on outside of guide/client scenario.
Stix... I have seen the stats on the rope and knot strength and the figure eight is the stronger of the two. A figure eight decreases the strength of a rope by about 20% while a dbl bowline decreases the strength by about 25%. A basic overhand creates about 60% decrease in strength.
I was having this same debate a few years ago when either rock and ice or climbing mag put out an article about knot strengths. They tested the strengths of like 20 different knots and the eight was the strongest. Followed by a double bowline. Overhand was the worst.
As for never catching peoples improperly tied knots. I hope as a belayer you are double checking everytime. I have caught two experienced climbers screwing up their knots. And in both cases it was because they weren't paying attention and were talking while tying in. Both times they didn't trace their eight properly.
