Muir Valley Trail Day

[Im-Not-There]

Acts of democracy are occasionally undertaken in the midst of the night with a couple of swings of cough syrup.

They never go well.

I've apologized to Liz and have given her permission, not that she needed it, to post the PM sent to her.

If there's a bright-side to this post, at least I've provided the community a new scapegoat to sacrifice with their frustrations. A few of the classic scapegoats are obviously getting weary of it.

Perhaps I've destroyed my credibility with respect to creating community, but isn't that what we are all trying for here? Can't we work together with all this and make a few sacrifices to make sure the greater good, the greater purpose is served here? Anyways, I'll leave it at that before I cause more trouble here.

As I mentioned to Liz, I'm sorry about this post, not because of the resulting mayhem, but because it shouldn't have been posted to begin with.

If possible, would the administrators of this BBS please remove the poll?

[pigsteak]

Democracy at work. Thanks for taking a stand for what you believe in.

Real quick question though. I am not sure how what Muir Valley is doing is contrary to AF values. Please elaborate.

[caribe]

Im-Not-There: Muir Valley permits guiding whereas Roadside does not. With easy routes, both places are perfect destinations for beginner climbers.

Why didn't the owners of Roadside get any backlash from this? I imagine no permit to guide could shut down the business completely.

[TrueNorth]

John Haight and Grant Stephens are the owners of Roadside. John, Grant and I are old friends. John and I are business associates and John guides for us. RRO also has a mutural relationship with both individuals. I was guiding in the Red before Muir Valley existed. We enjoy Rick and Liz's hospitality and friendship, but neither company is and/or should be dependent on Muir Valley or Roadside

[caribe]

TrueNorth: It is all a web of interconnectedness. If all climbing areas become adversarial to professional guiding, the business goes down. I honestly don't understand why Roadside does not let the pros guide there. I am in favor of the guiding business BTW just in case there are questions about this.

[krampus]

I'm-Not-There, your a dousche I could elaborate and concoct some well put creative post as to why but I was climbing today, not starting shit, I'm tired.

Joel

[Myke Dronez]

WTF- if you really have a problem just boycott MV altogether. Are you going to continue to climb there? Way to stick it to the man by boycotting his trail day. Maybe next time you're out at Muir with the family you can drop a big ol' deuce on the trail to really let him know who is boss..

[pigsteak]

btw,i'm not there, may I suggest a better way to show your support of the local guides?

hire them. all the good vibes and positive thoughts only go so far. hard cash feeds the face.

[danman]

I love climbing in Muir Valley. I have meet the owners. If they want to close it, its there land. U complain about local businesses, where were u when they closed torrent falls? I spend a lot of time climbing in the red. It's a huge area. There are routes all over the place, go hire a guide for those. If u want to support local businesses, go to miguels.

[512OW]

Perhaps I've destroyed my credibility with respect to creating community, but isn't that what we are all trying for here?

You can't have credibility as an anonymous poster. Just doesn't work. Yes, I read your post about why you choose to remain anonymous and that there is plenty of room in democracy for anonymous expression. Thats how we got our president. Good job.

Fact is, you started the fire, now you want to look as if you're the hero fireman.

Far more has been achieved by the people who show their faces and voice their concerns than will ever be acheived by those who hide behind secret identities.

Like your name implies, you're not here. This forum is not "the community". Its not even close. "The community" is at the crags, in Miguels pizzas, in TNO's steaks, in RRO's unbelievable selflessness, and in the Webers generosity. Its in steep sandstone and rhodo jungles. Its in the chalk-wasting humidity.

You're not here. The community is. You don't have to create it.