Guiding Services in the Red River Gorge

[pigsteak]

for the first time in my internet life, FIRST TIME.....I don't want to get involved and stir the pot.

hope this works out for all concerned. speak with your pocket book.

[KD]

for the first time in my internet life, FIRST TIME.....I don't want to get involved and stir the pot.

hope this works out for all concerned. speak with your pocket book.

this is truly an historic and monumental occasion as I also wish to refrain -including and not limited to past potty experiences.

[krampus]

I just want to remind rotary that gumby opinions don't count and that I hear florida is really nice this time of year.

[TrueNorth]

As the owner of TNO, I will admit that this is a complex issue. I personally have invested as much, or more, in TNO as Rick and Liz has invested in Muir Valley. Matt and Amy have borrowed an equally large amount to purchase RRO. After ten years of contributing to and reinvesting into TNO, I have finally created an infrastructure capable of providing several individuals in the community a livelihood and possible careers.

I have a wonderful staff that I am very proud of and thankful for. They have made a commitment to TNO and I owe them the opportunity of employment. I respect Matt and Amy and their efforts. I personally know how devastating a fire can be and wish them the best during this time of recovery and restructuring.

To set the record straight: TNO pays 1,200.00 to 2,000.00 each year to AMGA training. We are committed to a continual education program. We pay close to 4,000.00 each year for liability insurance. AMGA nor TNO requires “sponsorshipâ€

[Im-Not-There]

I don't think that my 3 or 4 guiding sessions per year will have a significant impact on your business. What I had not considered, and you brought to my attention, is that announcing it as "free" on RRC.com might impact the perceived market value of professional guiding services, such as those offered by RRO, TNO, and Torrent. So, I've edited my post accordingly.

I think we should remember that, from time to time and in certain circumstances, most local professional guides have guided for free.

Rick

The long and short of it is, Rick, you simply aren't thinking. Actually, your antisocial tendencies, namely the inability to place yourself in another's shoes, would be cause for concern if I were someone close to you. Since I'm not, it's simply disgusting.

In the interest of full disclosure, yes, I am a friend of many guides in the area. However, I have also tried to be a friend of yours. And, honestly, I write this trying to be as much a friend of you as possible.

Rick, you have to understand, your actions have consequences whether you believe they do or not. The world behaves as it will regardless of what you think - you should know this, you're an engineer.

Whether you like it or not, people around you, dare I say friends, have asked you in the kindest and clearest terms possible to not do this. In the past year, I'd like to know how many pieces of advice from the community you've headed. You ask for a community ethic and then ignore it's when most convenient to you. And as for your last comment, about guides occassionally guiding for free - BD and Petzl give free stuff away. Why? - To promote their product and generate future business. The same business philosophy is at work here. Do you think Petzl wouldn't raise issue with you if you starting manufacturing free quickdraws? This is a minor point to the larger issue, though.

I understand your purpose and it is good. But the effect is detrimental. I fear that your means will not serve your ends and will, eventually, ruin and tarnish a persona which you've worked hard to try to create.

If for nothing other than an act of goodwill, which I do believe you have in your soul, I ask you to rescind your offer, at least publicly. Take it down from here, from MuirValley.com (espeically the marquee across the header), and anywhere else you might have posted it. If you see or hear of someone seeking guiding services but wouldn't otherwise pay for them, pursue them. Don't do it publicly. Don't advertise it. Don't speak of it. And, if it turns out they're well-to-do, ask them to first look into a local guiding service.

Again, while your action is well intended and whether you wish to or not, you are hurting people. Your actions from here should be clear based simply on that premise. We're not asking you to break, just to bend.

-----

As an addendum, might I add that it says a lot that not TNO, RRO, or other guides are not included on Muir Valley's website:
http://muirvalley.com/places.php (note the scrolling marquee)

And if anyone else has concerns, also please remember that local guiding services are local, meaning that money that goes to them usually ends up in Wolfe, Lee, and Powell counties, some of the poorest counties in the nation. The owners of Muir Valley pay most, though not all, of their taxes in Indianapolis, Indiana.

[pigsteak]

would the last poster mind naming themselves? seems to me that if Rick, Matt, and Jeff are known, it is only fair for an adult conversation of such magnitude to be made with clear, honest intentions. If we hold strong beliefs on this issue, speaking out , in my opinion should be done, either face to face with a person, or with an open identity.

I know throwing stones can be fun, but this matter is something way different.

Kipp

[weber]

Would anyone else like to take a shot at me? Here's your chance to bravely register a pseudonym to hide behind and go for it.

I regret that RRO and TNO didn’t contact me personally with their concerns but rather chose to post lengthy dissertations on my “sinsâ€

[RRO]

I regret that I have to post again after I said I would not, but if you put my name on something and the facts are wrong it will get cleared up.

Rick,
I did pm you before I ever wrote on this topic. Your response was and I quote

"Matt,

See my posting in the thread."


You sir brought the public drama on yourself 100% by your intital post and your response to me while I was trying to keep the matter private.

Its your land, do as you would like. Just have skin thick enough to back it up when you have your knee jerk reactions. 3 edits on your intial post Rick, come on. Now you changed it to Red River Gorge Guide Service. Nothing from this matter is benefiting guiding as a business or anyone involved.

I have always supported you and the Valley with money, actions and time. I have always made it well known how thankful we were for your support as a business and a family to us. I had your back when a lot of people were over your attitude and the valley. How you handled this matter and how you have already removed any trace of RRO from your web site and many other things I will not bring up in a public forum shows where and how your your loyality works.

You seem to run off most people that get close to you or the Valley ? Why do you think that is ?

This whole subject has already taken up more time and brain power than I have to spare. I apologize for posting again even when I said I would not. Wasting anymore time on this will not be good for anyone involved. If anyone wants to discuss this further you know my # or email. Better yet, let it drop.

[TrueNorth]

Sorry Matt, but I'm just getting started

Rick

You did not have the courtesy to have a private conversation with neither Matt nor I before announcing your plans to compete with us.

I received a very short and very abrupt email to remove your name from our guide profile list. When I called you, confused and thinking that we had offended you in some unknown fashion, you were vague and only said, “I have decided to go in another directionâ€

[Brentucky]

Wow, this is a bit intense. I hope it all works out for everyone involved.

As an outsider who isn't buddy-buddy with any of the involved I'd have to say that this thing got blown way out of proportion really quickly. Rick wanted to offer a few free guided tours on HIS land with HIS time and got bashed and changed his statement from "free" to "3-4 no cost" sessions per suggestion that he admitted to overlooking. If taking 3 or 4 is "competing" then it sounds like there isn't much business to begin with. I'm sure many of us have taken out 3-4 new friends to show them the ropes... following the same logic we should also be bashed for interfering in the financial lives of the guides.

No disrespect meant to the guides as it sounds like you are loved and well-respected people who have had some misfortune. I'm just stating an observation/opinion without knowing many details.