JR wrote:Chains? Steel Biners? This shit sucks. Something about clunky crap hanging from otherwise beautiful routes makes me cringe. Take some of the best routes around and put the crappiest style biners,aka steel ovals, on the clipping ends of draws. Please don't go this route.
I'm almost positive we didn't buy ovals for the routes we'll be equipping. If we did we won't be hanging them. I'm pretty sure they're nice steel bent gates. Michelle will be confirming.
I've no real idea on how much the steel chain component of the cost per bolt is, but if chain is the "clunky crap" JR is talking about then how about Frost Power Draws? maybe they'd be willing to do a bulk discount.
neuroshock wrote:I've no real idea on how much the steel chain component of the cost per bolt is, but if chain is the "clunky crap" JR is talking about then how about Frost Power Draws? maybe they'd be willing to do a bulk discount.
pigsteak wrote:
jr, what is your beef if the lines have bent gate clippers? surely you jest about the asthetics...(considering the volumes of chalk we deposit, the trails we build, the erosion we cause, etc)
I am also open to suggestions to fix this problem more permanently.
Do what you like. I am just one climber. You are the workhorse. You are the guy in the trenches. Do what you feel is right. I support your decision.
My opinion didn't follow a specific logic. You are right. I am a user. I put chalk everywhere. I cause erosion. I just was leaning toward No Project Draws rather than spending time and money putting up stuff that I personally don't like to look at. More importantly, I don't like to climb on.
I know you like to leave a biner in the middle of the route to make cleaning easier. Maybe this would be a good compromise. Just one "fixed" draw with a steel biner maybe a locker in the middle to clean your own draws off.
Here is the big elephant that no one is talking about- (and I defend myself in advance- I do appreciate what Rick and Liz have done and have already committed to come to Muir this week and do some work if needed)
All of this greasing the squeaky wheel is nice. Stainless chain perma draws and SS clippers are a gold standard and the champaign way to go, but is it really necessary?
There have been perma draw hanging all over the Red for years and has one ever failed despite daily use? No, b/c they always bug folks and they get replaced by who ever is scared of them. I've done on several routes and I know others (Bentley) has done it too. Whats more, biners that are worn over 1/2 through and tatty old shite draws sun bleached and dry rot have been sent off to BD and other labs and pull tested and they all still fail way above forces that a falling climber would generate.
So, the obvious question is, is Rick over reacting. Rick, I know you will take umbrage at this and react defensively, but I really think that maybe you are.
Look at the data- I have read that two other discerning folks have been up there and have failed to see the worrisome gear that you are concerned about.
True, you have very high standards (which I have always respected), but really, none of these routes have been up long enough to see even long term project draws get hammered the way draws in the Madness Cave have been abused and are still being used.
The reason I point this unpleasant but obvious fact out is that folks are going to drop 150 bucks for a route to equip it with perma draws, when one, it is way overkill, two, it is butt-ugly, and three, if you are going to spend $150 bucks on clmbing, give it to the RRGCC to pay off the PMRP (and before anyone jumps on it, this isn't a MV vs RRGCC call to arms.)
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
Normie
yes, I did think about that option....and I personally like it...one or two fixed draws to clean thru....with two stainless biners at top to lower off.
I hope I am not sounding like a whiney old fart...At times it just absolutely floors me how we can complain when someone opens up their land for us to use.
lurk, the only exception I take with your assessment is this:
are you sure draws in the madness cave get "hammered" more than those at the solarium and sanctuary? aren't the madness routes all 13 and up? I am guessing the Muir routes see way more falls on gear...
but your point is well taken, and I agree with you. we climb on crap draws all the time, with no consequences. when you assert the perma draws are butt ugly, how would new shiny gear be any uglier than the tattered stuff up now?
and on a similar note, being an old crusty....in your estimation, how often would be reasonable to switch out draws? every 5 years with continual weekend use?
Many of you have offered good suggestions for hardware and gear on steep walls. Odd as it might sound, this control freak is going to turn the decision as to what solution is best over to YOU -- those who chose to develop and climb this heinous overhanging stuff. And, as always, we'll contribute toward its implementation.
Because of his respected reputation as a developer, especially of steep walls such as Midnight Surf, and his experience in MV, we would ask Kipp Trummel to be moderator of your "group." We hope he will receive input from respected developers and climbers, such as Kris Hampton, Mark Ryan, Jeff Colombo, Josh Thurston, Ron Bateman, Kenny Barker, Ray and Michelle, Dr. Kripal, Shannon, and far more others than could be conveniently listed here. Hash out your ideas and come up with a plan. Unless it is completely flakey or grossly unsafe, Liz and I will approve it.
