JR wrote:Almost all of these offending routes are easier routes and most are safe. Here is a important caveat.
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But in the end I do agree. An experienced climber would make a good choice for putting up quality but not necessarily safe routes.
JR: I bet your evolving aesthetic parallels your evolving climbing ability. Your opinion, friend, is most probably adrift with your station in life, as most opinions are. At least you have enough sense to look around at the other side of the coin and say what's the harm?
I fear I may never loose the child-like joy I take with those chossy 5.10s. I am training pretty hard, but this bubbly attitude on damn near everything is bloody loathsome curse . . . .
Hey, hang on a tic; that was spray wasn't it? That was subtle, smooth-as-silk, hard-to-see-but-there-it-be spray. Brilliant! Spray away. I am slow, but I think I might have just caught up. You and Tray are hard climbers.
caribe wrote:....
Hey, hang on a tic; that was spray wasn't it? That was subtle, smooth-as-silk, hard-to-see-but-there-it-be spray. Brilliant! Spray away. I am slow, but I think I might have just caught up. ....
smack talking spraylord. NICE. you are worthy as an arch enemy (my cerebral super villain if you will). But haven't you been climbing long enough to have developed at least a little contempt of others? this may be what is holding up your development. hell even josie is contemptuous sometimes.
It is easy to look back with the rose colored glasses of nostalgia, but contrived is still contrived.
Scary mixed routes, "x" rated trad routes, choss free solos (buckeye testpiece?) are all good, if that is what you are into. They are out there for you, and there are many more to put up as well.
As for the route in question, I bolted darwin loves you (Yea! for death anchor clipping holds, and bad rock at the anchors!) the same day / time. And I don't remember anyone commenting that "This scary loose block needs to be a part of the route forever" though they may have. I haven't climbed it, as I watched a few people on it, as it looks like choss, and not even very fun climbing. But, hey, if that is what people want, then they should go for it.
charlie, I might even go a step further. don't change a route even if you did put it up....
once it has been climbed by a bunch of others, I say it becomes community property. the FA should not be able to change it to ease their guilt, still send it because they are now fat/scared, or to appease the latest wave of gumbies.
but I do tend to agree with Wes. something that was a pile or poorly bolted initially (hen-ry) gets a life of its own that becomes sacrosanct. now , no one dreams of moving the bolts on this thing, but initially I bet the intention was not to scare people. I bet Porter was trying to drag belayers to Table, and he needed a route for them to climb.
the 'scare factor" on hen-ry is what gives it pucker factor, so in a sense it is contrived (and potentially damgerous) bolting that makes it a legendary climb. or is that infamous? still doesn't make the original bolting job "right"....or for that matter, "wrong"
(btw, I am 100% for leaving hen-ry as is...like Charlie says, there are plenty of other lines for safety sallies like myself to get our jollies on)
Last edited by pigsteak on Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
caribe wrote:
JR: I bet your evolving aesthetic parallels your evolving climbing ability. Your opinion, friend, is most probably adrift with your station in life, as most opinions are.
I find this statement insightful but curiously contradictory. If my appreciation for routes and my climbing abilities are on the rise. How is it then, adrift? I agree that we(ashtray and I) are good judges of quality, we just disagree on what should be done about routes that are unappealing.
pigsteak wrote:.....(btw, I am 100% for leaving hen-ry as is...like Charlie says, there are plenty of other lines for safety sallies like myself to get our jollies on)
There ya go. That's what I've been trying to say. Dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator is a crime. That's part of why people think they are entitled to perfect bolts, clean routes, and free access to climbing and national parks. There is plenty of climbing in the gorge where you don't get your hands dirty.
I think the point I'm trying to make is getting derailed with the example of Family Tradition but here I go again...... First time I climbed it I was with Tina, I talked to Alex about this route specifically. Yeah it's contrived (welcome to everything in the Red), but both John and Alex got jazzed about the fact that some Nancy would shit themselves climbing that choss. When you have to be careful and climb delicately, when there's a chance for disaster, it takes a little something extra and the route gives a little something extra. Don't like it? Move on, no apologies necessary. Just don't take those perversities away from those of us that like it just because you're looking out for the good of others.
Sometimes, it's rock climbing. We need to remember that.
charlie wrote:... When you have to be careful and climb delicately, when there's a chance for disaster, it takes a little something extra and the route gives a little something extra...
Yeah, like Mello Yello. Thanks for nothing Andrew!
smack talking spraylord. NICE. you are worthy as an arch enemy (my cerebral super villain if you will). But haven't you been climbing long enough to have developed at least a little contempt of others? this may be what is holding up your development. hell even josie is contemptuous sometimes.
