American Dream

[Buster]

Just 2 cents.... Rock climbing should not be contrived. When equipping a route if a bolt is placed to low or high, causing the route to be harder (spicy), the route is completely changed and totally contrived. Runouts in sport climbing for any other reason than there is no clipping hold or stance, are crap. If someone wants a spicy route and wants to make people pucker, start setting at a gym and put bad clipping holds at every bolt, don't risk someone else getting hurt for no reason.

This was not in any way directed at anyone, just mpo.

If a bolt is placed anywhere (high, low, whatever) the route is changed. Climbing is contrived.

[goodguy]

Buster.

I agree, climbing a bolted route is contrived to an extent. But wouldn't you agree that it is possible to make a route harder, both physically and mentally with poor bolt placement.

[512OW]

Frankly, I don't mind hard clips, but isn't sport climbing supposed to be about the moves? Thats what all the hardcore boltclippers are always preaching...

I think if you want to force "pucker-factor", maybe you should just go trad climbing...

All these sport climbing rules are retarded.

It must be very inconvenient to stand up every time you need to speak. Quit talkin out yer bunghole and think before responding dude. The route is fine as is. Period. The clip isn't even that hard if your not in over you head. If it is too hard to clip, there's prolly another route out there to suit you. Nothing "forced". In fact, what I suggested is just the opposite.

Take things a little personal, do we? Maybe you shouldn't read into the posts you're responding too so deeply. I was speaking in general, not about any particular route. So... take your own advice and think before responding. In fact, maybe even rethink it. You wouldn't sound so much like an elitist prick if you did.

[Toy]

Clever OW. Now can you keep focused long enough to comment on the issue in the thread instead of pointless labeling.

Goodguy the bolt isn't too low or high. It's at the appropriate height. Lowering the second or adding another between the two would create z-clip potential. Raising it create gound/ledge fall potential. Chris put it in the right spot. It just so happens to be in a place that requires a tough clip. Adding another bolt would make it contrived (or more so) to use your verbage.

[pigsteak]

why not remove the first bolt, and just clip the second. problem solved.

[Toy]

That'd be up to Chris (and no one else imo), but I bet I can guess his response. He climbs it from the ground. It climbs fine that way. He doesn't typically bolt routes with a required 1st bolt stick clip which is what would happen if the first is taken out. If you feel unsafe, stick clip the second. If you want to climb it from the ground, more power to ya. But don't remove the first bolt and reduce to route to satisfy the least common denominator

[the lurkist]

Something that needs to be said about this route that has already been mentioned, this route is a steep, juggy 12b/c. It is a good break-in route to the grade of 12c (I am not sure what grade the route is published at). The point is that I am betting folks do get on this route who are not solid at the grade. The route does have a challenging clip at the second bolt. It is the folks who are stretching themselves looking for the possible 12c send who are complaining. Anyone who uses it for a warmup isn't complaining.
It isn't necessarily good or bad, just a characteristic of the route.
I think the folks who are stepping up to the plate need to accept the stick clip option or clip the second bolt the old fashion way.
I have to agree with others here. The route is bolted correctly and CM goes to excessive degrees to bolt routes with the optimum clip. It is what he calls craftsmanship.

[allah]

The thing i first asked was should there be another bolt below the first, then i think in a later post, a possible moveing of bolts (which i dont think will ever happen or need to happen) But i do see where people get scared to stand there and stick clip the first 2 bolts with out being clipped into a bolt.

Oh and about re-bolting MILF money, the bolts definatly need moved just the first 3 or so to make it a safer route

[pigsteak]

did doyle get permission from the equippers on MILF money and 50 words. or is this something the FA gets to decide?

[anticlmber]

[quote="the It is what he calls craftsmanship.[/quote]

craftsman ship is the last two bolts on supafly sticking out due to rock, (they were put in that way) and the anchor on the ??? right sticking out and in cracked rock as well. quality craftsmanship i'm sure.