Is Ro Shampo really a 12?
Stay the Hand is a consensus 11d. Easy 12a's: Kick me in the Jimmy (Motherlode), Hippocrite (the Zoo). Hard 12a's: Bare Metal Teen (Torrent), Nicorette (Military), Tic Tac Toe (Roadside). A couple of these I have been on, a couple of them I have just come to accept from talking to more experienced climbers.
Mj
Mj
...quitting drinking is kinda like washing your hands after you take a crap...why start now?
I think it's all a bunch of BS really. Seems to be who you talk to. Ever notice people are really quick to downrate things but not so quick to say it felt harder than what it was?
Be weary of this "concensus" thing.
Personally, I'd have to disagree with the Stay the Hand thing.
I gave Nicorette and Kick Me in the Jimmy a flash but Stay took me a couple of tries. So, in my opinion Stay is harder. Nicorette is way easier than Tic Tac Toe and if you compare Bare Metal Teen to Hippocrite there's definitely something wrong in the world.
How about Check Your Grip? I onsite that but Wild Yet Tasty takes me 2 tries. Does that mean Wild Yet Tasty is actually a .12a since people say Check Your Grip is really an .11d? Or is it just that only two out of five people say that Check Your Grip is .11d so actually it's .12a so that would make Wild Yet Tasty .12b? Or maybe I just missed something on the first go at Wild Yet Tasty so they're both .11d...er..uhmm....12a? What's up with Extra Backup too? .12a? Nah, a brother of a sister of mine said it felt like .12a/.12b because of the runout so I'm gonna say it's .12c....or actually .12a/b+. If you really want to talk, how about The Love Shack? Where do they get off calling that .11c? That thing is hard so I'm gonna downrate it and bring back up the rating a bit and create a concensus of six characters but WAIT!!! My girlfriend about flashed it on toprope so maybe it really is .11c and I'm just not as good on my feet as she is? Nah, it's harder. God forbid I admit to some lack of technique.
Ratings sure can be confusing.
Be weary of this "concensus" thing.
Personally, I'd have to disagree with the Stay the Hand thing.
I gave Nicorette and Kick Me in the Jimmy a flash but Stay took me a couple of tries. So, in my opinion Stay is harder. Nicorette is way easier than Tic Tac Toe and if you compare Bare Metal Teen to Hippocrite there's definitely something wrong in the world.
How about Check Your Grip? I onsite that but Wild Yet Tasty takes me 2 tries. Does that mean Wild Yet Tasty is actually a .12a since people say Check Your Grip is really an .11d? Or is it just that only two out of five people say that Check Your Grip is .11d so actually it's .12a so that would make Wild Yet Tasty .12b? Or maybe I just missed something on the first go at Wild Yet Tasty so they're both .11d...er..uhmm....12a? What's up with Extra Backup too? .12a? Nah, a brother of a sister of mine said it felt like .12a/.12b because of the runout so I'm gonna say it's .12c....or actually .12a/b+. If you really want to talk, how about The Love Shack? Where do they get off calling that .11c? That thing is hard so I'm gonna downrate it and bring back up the rating a bit and create a concensus of six characters but WAIT!!! My girlfriend about flashed it on toprope so maybe it really is .11c and I'm just not as good on my feet as she is? Nah, it's harder. God forbid I admit to some lack of technique.
Ratings sure can be confusing.
Easy there...I am not trying to start a ratings war. If that were the case, I would be cursing every route Terry Kindred ever bolted. 
A lot of his 10's feel like lower to mid 11's to me. I will agree with you on the fact that ratings are dependant on who you talk to, who does them, etc, but I was just going by what the majority of people I have talked to have told me. As far as comparing BMT to Hippocrite, I was contrasting them to show the opposite ends of the spectrum. If you flashed Nicorette I bet you could have flashed Stay the Hand too but you probably just had gas or you were hung over or something. If you would have said you did it in 4 or 5 tries, THEN I would believe you actually thought it was hard. Seriously though, you flashed Nicorette? Jeez. The middle/bottom part of that route confused the hell out of me. I definitely need the beta for it.
Mj
A lot of his 10's feel like lower to mid 11's to me. I will agree with you on the fact that ratings are dependant on who you talk to, who does them, etc, but I was just going by what the majority of people I have talked to have told me. As far as comparing BMT to Hippocrite, I was contrasting them to show the opposite ends of the spectrum. If you flashed Nicorette I bet you could have flashed Stay the Hand too but you probably just had gas or you were hung over or something. If you would have said you did it in 4 or 5 tries, THEN I would believe you actually thought it was hard. Seriously though, you flashed Nicorette? Jeez. The middle/bottom part of that route confused the hell out of me. I definitely need the beta for it. Mj
...quitting drinking is kinda like washing your hands after you take a crap...why start now?
I believe Stay the Hand is 12a. the two sandbags are tic tac toe and bare metal teen. both are more like 12b. hey sik monkey. who are these so called experienced climbers you are listening to? i am a very well traveled climber and i have to agree with scin! by the way love shack and the gift both are cool.
If it were just one person who climbs one style, I would definitely agree that I need more research, but I have heard this coming from people who climb 5.13 and have been on every 12a in the Red, to people who are just now breaking into climbing 12's. The old guidebook drops it down to 11d as well. BMT I will agree is sandbagged. The moves aren't terrible, but damn it's long and pumpy. I have yet to try Tic Tac Toe, but I will probably do so either Thursday or this weekend. Like I said though, I am just repeating what I have heard. I am not trying to start an argument of any kind.
In a related topic, what do you think about the 11 wall at Torrent? Does anyone agree/disagree with those 4 ratings? I would be more inclined to say (from R to L) 11b, 11b/c, 11b/c, 11c. The reason I say 11b/c for the middle two is that one of them (Centerfire) has a nice tech move in the middle, then a nice pump, the other one (Recoil? or Receiver?) has a mild pump, then two moves at the end. What do you all think?
Mj
In a related topic, what do you think about the 11 wall at Torrent? Does anyone agree/disagree with those 4 ratings? I would be more inclined to say (from R to L) 11b, 11b/c, 11b/c, 11c. The reason I say 11b/c for the middle two is that one of them (Centerfire) has a nice tech move in the middle, then a nice pump, the other one (Recoil? or Receiver?) has a mild pump, then two moves at the end. What do you all think?
Mj
...quitting drinking is kinda like washing your hands after you take a crap...why start now?
MAn, I got an old guide book at home that says: Big money grip 12c, bare metal 12b, steelworker 12d, racer x 12c. Thought it was funy. Also called stunning the hog 12c, and convicted 13c.
Anyway man, I feel that most the 11d's I get on feel like 12a, were as most 12a's feel like 11D. What the hell is up with that? I kinda feel like it's a mental think where I'm getting more amped up for the 12 so it feels easier and less amped for the 11 so it feels harder. Or maybe it's because I'm hidding around the corner smoking crack most the day.
Anyway man, I feel that most the 11d's I get on feel like 12a, were as most 12a's feel like 11D. What the hell is up with that? I kinda feel like it's a mental think where I'm getting more amped up for the 12 so it feels easier and less amped for the 11 so it feels harder. Or maybe it's because I'm hidding around the corner smoking crack most the day.