Sculptor Loose @ Muir!

[512OW]

uh, so chipping is okay if a landowner does it?

Idiot.

If you own the cliff, you can do whatever you want with it. With people like you around, I'd suggest just closing it all.

Climbers put in bolts, brush off lichen that depend on the cliff to survive, destroy animal habitats, and then cover the rock with chalk.

We're the idiots if we think we are good to the environment. Chipping is minor compared to the other bullshit we pull...

[ElectricDisciple]

couldn't you make your own cable slings like those powerdraws? Seems like all you'd need is a spool of cable, bender, and crosbies. . .

[Buster]

In reality, all route developers "sculpt" rock...

...Not all route developers beat the area around the hangers flat, trundle off flakes, break off crusties, scrape and brush.

Thank you. I stand corrected. Just my opinion - not all, but most developers do most or all of these practices.

Rick

Sorry, you are wrong. This kind of "development" is what you have seen at Muir Valley and now you think that this is normal. Just because the guys that are bolting the routes on your land do all this shite does not mean that this is normal practice anywhere else.
I dare you to go to any other area on the planet, break out your heavy handed tactics and wait for the fall out.

I understand how you are. You want Muir Valley to be a nice, safe, sterile climbing environment. Family friendly with no rude surprises like unleashed dogs, undersized clipping jugs, sporty run outs, sharp edges, uncomfortable holds, or loud fucksticks (like me). Frankly it makes me want to vomit. I hate Disneyland and everything that Disneyland stands for. No sharp edges, no run outs, no victory whips, and please make the 5.11b routes graded 5.12 because lord knows that the customers (uh I mean "users") should have a GREAT time here and send the grade that they deserve!

Excuse me while I puke.....

[Pru]

If you own the cliff, you can do whatever you want with it. With people like you around, I'd suggest just closing it all.

Climbers put in bolts, brush off lichen that depend on the cliff to survive, destroy animal habitats, and then cover the rock with chalk.

We're the idiots if we think we are good to the environment. Chipping is minor compared to the other bullshit we pull...

Your post makes no sense. Of course a landowner can do whatever he wants on his property, but that doesn't mean anything and everything he chooses to do is right. If a landowner chips holds on a route, he is going to catch much deserved grief for it. Anyone who supports chipping by a landowner is a clearly a suck up.

The chipping issue has nothing to do with environmental impact. It also has nothing to do with cleaning a route, even aggressive cleaning. Chipping is what selfish fucks do to a route they cannot send in order to bring the climb down to their level. It's never okay.

[ashtray]

asdf

[rhunt]

huh drama...

[caribe]

You want Muir Valley to be a nice, safe, sterile climbing environment. Family friendly with no rude surprises like unleashed dogs, undersized clipping jugs, sporty run outs, sharp edges, uncomfortable holds, or loud fucksticks (like me). Frankly it makes me want to vomit. I hate Disneyland and everything that Disneyland stands for. No sharp edges, no run outs, no victory whips, and please make the 5.11b routes graded 5.12 because lord knows that the customers (uh I mean "users") should have a GREAT time here and send the grade that they deserve!

I frankly can not understand this vitriol directed toward Rick. He and Liz have given heart and soul (just a metaphor, see Adam and Eve hunted dinosaurs) to the Red and the climbing community. If you want runouts and wild adventure go elsewhere.

I love the fact that they test gear at Muir, it gives us all perspective. The time and money that went into developing Muir as a climbing site and nature preserve is time and money that very few of us have. The fact that you use the word customers when no one is paying but the Webers is F-ed up and ungrateful mon ami. I too despise Disneyland, but that is not Liz and Rick's perspective at all. The edge on your message is dissonant with the facts.

The dual purpose of Muir means no dogs, be happy it does not mean no climbers. Muir is a place beginners can go and be safer. Muir runs programs to educate people. We all trip on the out-of-this-world gumby antics we see at the Red; Liz and Rick actually DO SOMETHING about it. Just because they are not align exactly with what you think climbing ought to be does not mean that you can't value the Webers as a vital cog in the climbing community. Your message leaves wondering whether you think we would all be better off if Muir would close. That is utter madness!!! Think 3x B4 U post.

This public service announcement was not financed by the Weber campaign committee.

This post in NO WAY supports chipping to create holds. I think it is dead wrong. It must violate the principle of minimal acceptable change and the natural moral code that we all natively understand.

[pigsteak]

this is a pissing match that piglet definitely wants to join...

let's start with this. the first accusation was made by buster and ashtray. admittedly third hand, it was made to merely start a firestorm.....touche...piglet loves to start unsubstantiated rumors, so I tip my hat to you guys for continuing the legacy.

if you two really cared, and didn't merely want to grind your axe with Muir, why not PM the supposed offender FIRST? if not satisfied with the answer, THEN post here to get peer pressure working. just curious.

and now it is time for the current route developers to speak up. rockman, wes, rro, mcglone, redpoint ron, goodguy..time to sack up and speak your mind....none of you have placed a single bolt in Muir, but between you guys and I, we have placed hundreds of bolts elsewhere in the Red. Buster says the practice of flattening spots for hangers (among other things) does not happen elsewhere in the Red. Have any of you ever done this?

BTW, the anti chipping crowd sounds like a bunch of neo con religious zealots...you know, clean the sand off the ledge, trundle the 50 pound block, drill a 4 inch deep hole for an anchor, rid the wall of spiders and wasps, trample the rhodo at the base, build an access fund approved trail, put in chemical treated lumber for foot bridges, shit in the woods.....but by god, you no good pussies, how dare you smooth out a pocket. just when we thought religious fervor was limited inside the church walls.....caribe and shamis, I look forward to you guys salmming their blind dedication.

on another note, and this is a serious question, since Buster forgot his lithium this AM....how many routes have you climbed at Muir to make this Disneyland assessment?

[Lateralus]

I can't think of a limestone area I've visited that didn't employ all the "heavy handed" tactics described above. While distance between bolts and victory whippers at those public areas are up to the user, the routes get cleaned quite a bit. If they weren't the routes would suck and by that I mean you would often be grabbing razor sharp holds and I mean holds that will instantly make you bleed if you pull on them, or holds that would break off in your hand, etc... If you think muir is the only place where people clean routes diligently, it's not true. The funny thing is most people don't even know someone spent hours cleaning the route they are enjoying and a lot of these same people slam the tactics used to clean and equip.

As far as the safe environment goes: Put yourself in Rick's shoes, would you open yourself up to lawsuits if you had an investment to protect? I think you would do everything you could to make climbing overly safe on your own private property, and protect yourself as much as you could while still allowing people to use it for rock climbing. If people wanted to be more bold they only need to drive a few miles down the road and climb on public property where lawsuits aren't as much a concern.

i agree with pigsteak-- this make me feel dirty

[rhunt]

I think the old-school bolters/route/cliff developers are just resentful that anyone with a drill gets to bolt routes these days. Drilling route use to be only for the 5.13 climbers who knew where the secrete crag was...ie the motherlode. I can see how that might mess with our delicate climbers ego. Well all I can say is, get over it, its 2007 not 1993.