10 Steps to Fascism
L K Day, If you got a minute can you give me your opinion on something? Many people are saying there will be all these negative consequences if we pull out of Iraq too soon(or at all). Can you tell me specifically what *might* happen? I honestly am not informed enough to have an opinion either way. Yet I am not just going to beleive things will surly we be bad, that our country will be anymore vulnerable to a terrorist attack than it was before 9-11....or after.
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist
L K Day wrote:Invading Iraq was all about preventing the next 9/ll. It had nothing to do with avenging the last 9/ll or bringing to justice the perpetrators of that horrible event. As such it was a judgement call, a call that many in this country find it impossible to accept, even after they voted in favor of the invasion. We know politicians are slimeballs. What I can't accept is that after the going got tough these cowards wanted to wash their hands of responsibility, claim they were lied to, and make political hay. Despite all the revisionist history, most every intelligence agency on earth believed that Sadam was pursuing the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction in direct violation of the terms under which the previous hostilities had been halted. Even that lieing piece of shit Joe Wilson submitted a report that tended to lend support to the belief that Iraq was trying to acquire uranium from Niger. Today he is glorified as speaking truth to power when he lies and says he debunked that notion of Iraq's intent to aquire Uranium. The fact is he did nothing of the kind. He just knows which way the political winds are blowing.
Wait wait wait. Revisionist history? Joe Wilson was sent to Niger by the CIA and reported back that the story that Iraq had attempted to buy yellow cake was bogus. To say he said the obvious is simply false. The document that "proved" the attempted purchase was a forgery that had been detected by not only Wilson and his team but several other intelligence agencies. The administration lied deliberately to us to get this war rolling.
Don't you think if the evidence had been so convincing to the rest of the world we would have gotten more than a few thousand troops to help us with the invasion?
Also, at the time we went to war the country was split down the middle whether or not to go. It is an embarrasment that our representative government folded but (as is still true) if you protested the bullheaded blundering of this administration you were painted as a traitor.
Every time someone from the right shouts about "revisionist history" you know they'are about to revise history. According to you people John Adams was a Bible thumping Baptist... probably dancing around with snakes when he was a progressive free thinker. Today he might even be referred to as a secular humanist.
Funny, we could win Viet Nam as well... up until we finally got out. Remember the predictions then? End of the fucking world, right? Dominos and all that. We cannot win in Iraq unless we kill every last person in the country. Right now the non-militant population is fleeing en mass (we're not taking in any of those refugees or, as I'm sure Cheney would call them, "defeatists." We've only taken in 500 refugees from Iraq. That's pathetic.). Every time our soldiers kill an Iraqi their entire family is then obligated to kill our soldiers. The only way to win in this situation is to withdraw completely from Iraq and let them sort it out. Our presence only makes things worse and will NEVER be accepted by the Iraqis.The bottom line is that we are in Iraq, and that the consequences of defeat would be extrordinarily negative for this country. We can win, mistakes of the past are being corrected, and we simply must win. It disgusts me to no end to see the leaders of my democratic party trying to throw the war for their own political gain. These people are beneath contempt.
You may think getting out of Iraq is nothing but a political ploy. I think getting us into this war was a big game meant to consolidate power and misdirect us from the giant fuckup that has been the Republican run government. The traitors are the ones that have been profitting from this war. The traitors are the ones that fabricated intelligence to get us into this war. The realists are the ones that want us to start getting out of there now. Saddam is gone and only the Iraqis can solve their own internal problems. All we're doing is squeezing the balloon.
Do you really think things are going better in Iraq? Do you pay any attention to the news? 200 killed in car bombs one day, 60 the next, reports of 30 or more bodies lying in the street each morning... oh, that's not the good news. The news outlets that report these things aren't telling us the good news so they are "liberally biased."
Last edited by Alan Evil on Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[size=75]You are as bad as Alan, and even he hits the mark sometimes. -charlie
"Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill[/size]
"Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill[/size]
Actually I'm talking about a relative here in Kentucky and he seems as brainwashed as you. He watches a lot of Bill O'Reilly and the like and really believes that Saddam Hussein ordered the attacks in NYC. My grandma won't let me argue with him about it any more and I don't both for her and because he's dying from leukhemia resulting from massive exposure to Agent Orange in Viet Nam... a war we lost and a war that was undertaken based on lies... a war he never should have been sent to fight in. You'd think he'd learn but when you fall deep into the evangelical Christian folds you only allow yourself to believe what your preacher tells you you can believe which unfortunately includes Fox "News."As for your Hillbilly friends in West Virginia, they are not as stupid as you think. They fear terrorist attacks not because they would be targeted, but because Americans would be targeted, and they identify with their fellow citizens, even if said citizens are New Fuckin Yorkers.
Here's what bothers me about being obsessed with terrorism: It's important but it's not the only thing to pay attention to. Here's what bothers me about this administration's approach to combatting terrorism: It's scattered, vague, and wasteful. With the money we're spending on this stupid war we could be training and equipping detectives and special forces military to hunt for terrorists here (remember OK City?) and abroad (remember Osama Bin Laden?), as well as helping the people being recruited by Al Qaida with both monetary aid and strong diplomatic pressure on the governments that repress them. This administration won't hire people that speak the language if they're gay or vote Democrat, despite the fact our number one intelligence weakness is we can't understand what the enemy is saying. This administration spends hundreds of thousands of hours spying on peace activists (oh yeah, those Quakers are going to be attacking any day now). This administration issues national security letters at a rate hundreds of times higher than has ever been used but not to combat terrorism, they just use them for general spying on the populace (that's number four on the list, btw).
Did you bother to read the accompanying article? Of course not. You might have to think about things then. It's much easier if some talking head on your favorite television tells you what to think. As I said (and is stated clearly in the article) the figures are estimated for 2003 based on previous years. 9/11 had happened by then but, of course, we didn't lose any Americans to terrorism in 2002... or in 2000 or 1999 or 1998...As for your chart, I don't see the risk of dieing as a soldier in Iraq anywhere on it. I statistically speaking, it's roughly the same as dieing at the hands of a terrorist. So that wouldn't make the list either.
As of 2003 the insurgency in Iraq hadn't built up and gotten active yet so we weren't losing many soldiers yet. Why not? Because the terrorists weren't there until after we occupied the country. The invasion and occupation of Iraq was a mistake so huge it boggles the mind.
Ok, gotta go work.
[size=75]You are as bad as Alan, and even he hits the mark sometimes. -charlie
"Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill[/size]
"Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill[/size]
rhunt, If we leave Iraq too soon, odds are that the elected government would collapse, secterian violence would increase by several fold, resulting in the deaths of many thousands more innocent Iraqis, and al Qaeda would have free run of a country from which to further their attacks on the West. Remember what happened the last time they had their own country?
Evil, There was a forged document. This certainly didn't lead to the invasion of Iraq. You're wrong on every single other point including Joe Wilson. His report did not discredit the claim that Iraq was seeking yellow cake uranium in Niger. His report supported that claim. It was later that he lied about the content of his report, and the media, and apparently you, fell for the lie.
I've said about all I've got to say on this subject for right now. You can have the last word.
Evil, There was a forged document. This certainly didn't lead to the invasion of Iraq. You're wrong on every single other point including Joe Wilson. His report did not discredit the claim that Iraq was seeking yellow cake uranium in Niger. His report supported that claim. It was later that he lied about the content of his report, and the media, and apparently you, fell for the lie.
I've said about all I've got to say on this subject for right now. You can have the last word.
Last edited by Day on Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Holy crap Day. Your logic is mind boggling. I don't even know where to begin.
Alan says a bunch of things that make go
but your on another planet, and I think the planet is called denial, or brainwash, or something.
It would take me three pages to tell all the things that you said that were wrong, but then you would just come back with something that makes no sense.
Answer me this Day. How does being in debt 8 trillion dollars, and having that money being held by other countries improve our national security? How does that help our bargaining power? How does admitting that our intellegence was faulty/faked help our negotiating power, credibility, and national security.
Let me remind you that most other countries were relying on our intellegence, and many countries were saying that it was wrong, including the Hans Blix. Also, Bush used many reasons to go to war with Iraq and changed them when the public or world didn't buy them. He originally started with saying that Iraq was linked to 9/11 but nobody bought it so he changed to WMD's.
I am not even sure why I am getting in this arguement, but here are a few questions related to national security that you might be able to answer.
Alan says a bunch of things that make go
but your on another planet, and I think the planet is called denial, or brainwash, or something. It would take me three pages to tell all the things that you said that were wrong, but then you would just come back with something that makes no sense.
Answer me this Day. How does being in debt 8 trillion dollars, and having that money being held by other countries improve our national security? How does that help our bargaining power? How does admitting that our intellegence was faulty/faked help our negotiating power, credibility, and national security.
Let me remind you that most other countries were relying on our intellegence, and many countries were saying that it was wrong, including the Hans Blix. Also, Bush used many reasons to go to war with Iraq and changed them when the public or world didn't buy them. He originally started with saying that Iraq was linked to 9/11 but nobody bought it so he changed to WMD's.
I am not even sure why I am getting in this arguement, but here are a few questions related to national security that you might be able to answer.
Living the dream