Sport & Trad Closure at Torrent Falls
Did anyone actually look at the financials? It can't be that profitible or someone would have bought it by now. $300,000 per year profit? You would think someone would want a crack at that kind of revenue stream. Plus, if you are a good business person, you should be able to make the business grow.
The theory of evolution is just as stupid as the theories of gravity and electromagnetism.
Stewy911 wrote:
I thought Torrent was making $300,000 a year. When it was up for sale I remember reading something like" In three years you will make your money back"? So I am somewhat confused I guess. Maybe I did my math wrong! Hey Chriss help me out here. If you buy it for $900,000 and they say you make your money back in 3 yrs thats $300,000 correct? Hmmm very interesting......
*************
Bingo! You hit the nail on the head, Stewy. If I was dragging in that kind of cash, I wouldn't put up with freebie climbing in my backyard either.
ZSpiddy
I thought Torrent was making $300,000 a year. When it was up for sale I remember reading something like" In three years you will make your money back"? So I am somewhat confused I guess. Maybe I did my math wrong! Hey Chriss help me out here. If you buy it for $900,000 and they say you make your money back in 3 yrs thats $300,000 correct? Hmmm very interesting......
*************
Bingo! You hit the nail on the head, Stewy. If I was dragging in that kind of cash, I wouldn't put up with freebie climbing in my backyard either.
ZSpiddy
My business partner and I spent a few evenings looking into it. We didn't have any P&L from Torrent, just using hypothetical numbers. We based it on the current rental rates for the cabins, the current land / tax rate in the county, and a booked rate of 75% (a very, very high estimate I'm sure). We worked the numbers six ways from Sunday with no success. I just don't think it could generate the kind of revenue that would be required for the purchase. Keep in mind we were just looking at the left half and it's stated price.Saxman wrote:Did anyone actually look at the financials? It can't be that profitible or someone would have bought it by now. $300,000 per year profit? You would think someone would want a crack at that kind of revenue stream. Plus, if you are a good business person, you should be able to make the business grow.
I think if you take away the climbing value that the property holds for people like us and look at it as an outsider, the investment might be a poor one. Anyone seeking to make the purchase solely on securing access (e.g. RRGCC) might be making a mistake. I'm sure that Mark and Family value the property higher because when they look around they see what they have built, all the work it took, all they endured from climbers, and all the good times in-between. So naturally the value goes up.
I personally didn't climb very much at Torrent, but when I did I never paid anything. The reason I didn't pay is that someone who introduced me to climbing around 4 years ago said "They used to charge there but they don't anymore". I'm not blaming him for my being misinformed. Any small amount of research would have given me the facts. But back a year ago or so when the no dogs / closure threat came out I realized that I was in fact supposed to be paying. So I talked it over with my climbing partner and we counted up all the times we went to Torrent and dropped off the money on our next trip. It may have been more than owed, but we just called it interest.
Anyway, my point is that climbing at Torrent was fun, I'll miss it although I didn't climb there much. I'll just use this as a reminder and maybe be a little more conscious next time I'm at the crag.
Mark catered my wedding, and was awesome. I support his decision. While it doesn't leave me feeling all rosy, he did the right thing. I remember, about 6 years ago, Alexis and I met him at the shell. We had gear out and he approached us, told us who he was. We felt honered to meet someone who was so generous with his land, and told him how glad we were that he was opening torrent.
He said "well, the climbers are quiet, clean up after themselves, and are no trouble at all."
That was only six years ago.
My, how things change.
He said "well, the climbers are quiet, clean up after themselves, and are no trouble at all."
That was only six years ago.
My, how things change.
"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."
If you feel you need to boycott, then do it.Ballss wrote:Come on.... it's common sense. You take climbers out of his customer base and it'd be a DRASTIC cut in profit.Meadows wrote:How is NEOD going to guarantee that Mark profits from climbers?
Last edited by Meadows on Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
the lurkist
- Posts: 2240
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:07 pm
I agree with Charlie, Rhunt, Maine, other crusty old climbers...
The intrinsic problem with our sport is that it selects for young people who are in a very narcissistic point in their lives. The self gratification of Climbing only serves to reinforce these "me-centric" qualities.
I also think that climbers are a fairly transient group. By this I am referring to the time period folks are involved in climibing. While the local group around here are lifers, I think many people adopt climbing as a life style sport for a while and then move on. The problem with this short term involvement and transience is that it is difficult to make these folks feel involved, take ownership as members of the community, educate them about our outdoor ethos and ettiquette, etc....
Perhaps Rhunt is right. Closures may be the way to help control the herd. A cattle prod, if you will....
We (myself and other old schoolers) long ago discussed the machiavellian tactic of purposefully fucking up access with land owners to get climbing shut down, creat negative press, and basically help people to decide that if they had to drive 5-6 hours to go climb, they might choose somewhere else. As Spragwa said, when the ratio of locals to travelers is out of wack, problems are going to occur.
The intrinsic problem with our sport is that it selects for young people who are in a very narcissistic point in their lives. The self gratification of Climbing only serves to reinforce these "me-centric" qualities.
I also think that climbers are a fairly transient group. By this I am referring to the time period folks are involved in climibing. While the local group around here are lifers, I think many people adopt climbing as a life style sport for a while and then move on. The problem with this short term involvement and transience is that it is difficult to make these folks feel involved, take ownership as members of the community, educate them about our outdoor ethos and ettiquette, etc....
Perhaps Rhunt is right. Closures may be the way to help control the herd. A cattle prod, if you will....
We (myself and other old schoolers) long ago discussed the machiavellian tactic of purposefully fucking up access with land owners to get climbing shut down, creat negative press, and basically help people to decide that if they had to drive 5-6 hours to go climb, they might choose somewhere else. As Spragwa said, when the ratio of locals to travelers is out of wack, problems are going to occur.
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
Normie
Normie
hi.
it seems pretty easy if you, say, like mark, to group all the people doing things he didn't like into any group that clearly does not contain you, as in "gym climbers," "sport climbers," "young people" or "jerks" (because none of us are jerks to ourselves). But i think the crag at Torrent had three major problems:
high traffic-to-land ratio
proximity to the road
proximity to living space
i also suspect that the owners might not be quite as unbelievably cool as the webers, but we'll leave that out of the main argument.
when i go to a crag, i bring toilet paper (being one of those objectionable "females"). i do not anticipate nor look for a port-a-let; if i saw one i would assume it was for some visiting non-climbers. when i have to pee, i find somewhere as private as possible and do so.
at trad crags, this isn't a problem. it's what you're supposed to do. pee is natural, unlike babbo. in small, individual-sized doses, it belongs in the ground. so that's where i go. but the exact same behaviors get torrent closed. why? it isn't a trad crag. it isn't really even a crag. it's a man's yard.
the only time i have ever been to torrent (shiver), at least six chinese men brought their wives (non-climbing), lawn chairs and children (all younger than four) and made complete asses of themselves. they wanted the 5.1; we told them there was none, only a 5.2 trad (and pointed). they said "that route's bolted." we were confused. finally we said, "the crack is the 5.2, not the bolted line" i think they understood but they weren't nice about it. they didn't have trad gear, so they decided they wanted the routes we were on. we cleaned them and got onto the closest nine. they hogged the routes we had let go of, but they didn't climb them. then they said they wanted our nine, and stood and watched us until we got off. i had a feeling they were going to continue to follow us forever, demanding whatever routes we had. so you know what we did?
went to muir valley. it's a longer approach.
i'm sure this story isn't representative of most chinese folks' behavior, so please don't assume i'm some racist yahoo. but i will say that people who don't want to extend any effort to get to a "crag" could climb those stairs fairly easily. people who want to actually climb outdoors can go to muir valley. and people who want to be alone in nature? they trad climb.
as of this year (hooray!) i climb trad, and i just don't have to deal with this. i pack out my tp, but if i'm falling i shout F*CK! just like anybody who thinks she's about to die, and when i gotta go, i go.
anybody worth their weight in salt will notice i didn't touch the issue of dogs. be it known that i love dogs, but that argument never. ends.
ps. for captain_static: it's sweet that you feel responsible. but the kind of folks who join the rrgcc are NEVER going to be the same folks who cause the problems. how do you reach em, bill?
it seems pretty easy if you, say, like mark, to group all the people doing things he didn't like into any group that clearly does not contain you, as in "gym climbers," "sport climbers," "young people" or "jerks" (because none of us are jerks to ourselves). But i think the crag at Torrent had three major problems:
high traffic-to-land ratio
proximity to the road
proximity to living space
i also suspect that the owners might not be quite as unbelievably cool as the webers, but we'll leave that out of the main argument.
when i go to a crag, i bring toilet paper (being one of those objectionable "females"). i do not anticipate nor look for a port-a-let; if i saw one i would assume it was for some visiting non-climbers. when i have to pee, i find somewhere as private as possible and do so.
at trad crags, this isn't a problem. it's what you're supposed to do. pee is natural, unlike babbo. in small, individual-sized doses, it belongs in the ground. so that's where i go. but the exact same behaviors get torrent closed. why? it isn't a trad crag. it isn't really even a crag. it's a man's yard.
the only time i have ever been to torrent (shiver), at least six chinese men brought their wives (non-climbing), lawn chairs and children (all younger than four) and made complete asses of themselves. they wanted the 5.1; we told them there was none, only a 5.2 trad (and pointed). they said "that route's bolted." we were confused. finally we said, "the crack is the 5.2, not the bolted line" i think they understood but they weren't nice about it. they didn't have trad gear, so they decided they wanted the routes we were on. we cleaned them and got onto the closest nine. they hogged the routes we had let go of, but they didn't climb them. then they said they wanted our nine, and stood and watched us until we got off. i had a feeling they were going to continue to follow us forever, demanding whatever routes we had. so you know what we did?
went to muir valley. it's a longer approach.
i'm sure this story isn't representative of most chinese folks' behavior, so please don't assume i'm some racist yahoo. but i will say that people who don't want to extend any effort to get to a "crag" could climb those stairs fairly easily. people who want to actually climb outdoors can go to muir valley. and people who want to be alone in nature? they trad climb.
as of this year (hooray!) i climb trad, and i just don't have to deal with this. i pack out my tp, but if i'm falling i shout F*CK! just like anybody who thinks she's about to die, and when i gotta go, i go.
anybody worth their weight in salt will notice i didn't touch the issue of dogs. be it known that i love dogs, but that argument never. ends.
ps. for captain_static: it's sweet that you feel responsible. but the kind of folks who join the rrgcc are NEVER going to be the same folks who cause the problems. how do you reach em, bill?
terbie
old woman..
yup, you are a racist yahoo. the story would have had the same ending without nation of origin included. try to get over yourself for being so considerate of the lesser cretins.
people who want to climb outside go climb at muir valley? that perhaps is the dumb ass comment of the week. muir is disneyland, McD's playplace and a climbing gym all wrapped in one. every climb has a safe first bolt, trails with names on all signs, groomed trails, all route names posted right on the wall beneath the climb...etc.....are you sure you've ever climbed at Muir? try bruise brothers wall any given weekend for your true wilderness experience.
that being said, Muir is a stellar place to climb..let's just be honest in our perceptions.
notice I didn't touch the issue of trad. trad is so 1980 and the argument never ends. ever.
btw, why would a port a potty be for a non climber, and not the elitist's like you who feel entitled to soil his cliff?
yup, you are a racist yahoo. the story would have had the same ending without nation of origin included. try to get over yourself for being so considerate of the lesser cretins.
people who want to climb outside go climb at muir valley? that perhaps is the dumb ass comment of the week. muir is disneyland, McD's playplace and a climbing gym all wrapped in one. every climb has a safe first bolt, trails with names on all signs, groomed trails, all route names posted right on the wall beneath the climb...etc.....are you sure you've ever climbed at Muir? try bruise brothers wall any given weekend for your true wilderness experience.
that being said, Muir is a stellar place to climb..let's just be honest in our perceptions.
notice I didn't touch the issue of trad. trad is so 1980 and the argument never ends. ever.
btw, why would a port a potty be for a non climber, and not the elitist's like you who feel entitled to soil his cliff?
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.