/thread hijack
Wes, the Red won't quite be the Red without you. Mia, too. I always hope/look forward to seeing the two of you when I am down. Will you be coming back?
/end thread hijack
It just kills me........Southern Region
Gretchen, I really didn't think it was possible to offend you. You really let me down. Really though, I apologize for shoving that in your face like I did in my original post. Most of what I write is fueled by alcohol, temper and adrenalin. Michelle told me that a Warrior would wait until he is calmed down to make a decision (or something like that). I waited about ten minutes and nothing changed in my head so I wrote what I wrote. I guess I'm not a Warrior.Gretchen wrote: I have to say that in this particular thread, that initially I was offended by SCIN's direct attack at me
Maybe I can explain better why I'm so pissed now that I'm calmed down a bit.
I received an email from John explaining that the decision was made to publicize the route information for the Southern Region in order to draw attention to it for fund raising. He added that he was aware I really didn't need his permission anyway but he was just letting me know that he was all for it now.
It was very nice and respectful. Very "John".
Next thing you know I'm speaking with Hugh at Miguel's and he is telling me that he wants me to put the information in the online guide but also to solicit people for personal information (if they want to see the route information for that area) so the RRGCC can in turn solicit those people for money. He mentions that he would like to pass his knowledge of the Southern Region on to me so I could enter it into the guide. I ask him if he would like to enter the information himself and he says that he really doesn't have the time. So right then I feel like this:
A) This guy thinks I can't do this shit without him
B) This guy wants me to gather personal info from people so they can be spammed or telemarketed to.
C) This guy doesn't even want to help. He says he doesn't have time.
Does he think I have all the fucking time in the world? I'm in the middle of obtaining my MCSE. I have a demanding job. I have the web site. I train for Duathlons. I train for climbing. I climb. What....does he think I'm some unemployed fucking teenager???
So...I mention that I could do the same thing without his help. I know how to hike. I know how to climb. I can climb probably any route this guy can climb. If not I can at least look at the route and know if it's crimpy or not or whatever. He then mutters and stumbles a bit and in a smooth sort of way says that something to the effect of "Well, we're going to own the land and it will be private property and you will be doing something illegal if you don't do it our way". He didn't say those exact words but that's the idea I got.
BOOM!!!!!!!! A THREAT!
So, let's add to the list:
D) This motherfucker is threatening me.
My heart rate is starting to increase just thinking about it right now. This shit fuels me. I may be 32 but I still feel like a kid in school when the teacher told me I couldn't do something. What did I do? I did it just to show her that I *could* do it even though she told me I couldn't.
AND THEN.............
The weekend comes and goes and I hear that Hugh is running around telling people that the Solar Collector stuff is all wrong and there are all kinds of mistakes. These "critical" mistakes are things as petty as a route being named "Green Horns in Velvet" in the guide but it is actually "Green Horns". OH DAMN! Now nobody is going to want to climb it! I think he was just trying to show that I *needed* his wisdom or something.
So now..........
Here we are. That is why we are in this situation.
A) I can gather route information without Hugh
B) I'm not going to be the source of a spamming or telemarketing incident.
C) I just may not have time to create a data collection screen anyway.
D) Nobody threatens me and gets away with it.
If only it had stopped at John's kind words.
Yo Ray jack dynomite! Listen to my beat box! Bew ch ch pff BEW ch ch pfff! Sweet!
-Horatio
-Horatio
-
captain static
- Posts: 2438
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 6:05 pm
I love you Jeff!!! You rock!
Ray,
I can understand your frustration. I totally realize that in your way, you are trying to contribute to the climbing community by providing a valuable resource, ie. the guide. I cannot imagine the time that you have spent to date pulling all of that info together and entering it. Data collection sucks!
When you first started the project, I very openly disagreed with you regarding the publication of the crags in the southern region due to the fact some of them reside in the Murray property and the RRGCC is negotiating on that. Second point, I was also told that the FA's were not ready to disclose further information and was respecting their wishes as well. Then I dropped it. I felt that my opinion was out and this is your website, end of discussion at that.
Then I find out that both John & Hugh approached you regarding the GC, etc. To my knowledge, this was not endorsed by the RRGCC. Maybe I was out of the loop, whatever the case maybe. The purchase of the property is a very daunting challenge for the RRGCC. This assumes a whole different dimension of responsibilites, liabilities, and very long term thinking. We are struggling on a daily basis with the ethics, the risks, & the opportunities. It takes one death to drive home the significance of having a well thought out plan and to have it challenged. This will be our land, the climbing community. Let's face it, death can happen on the USFS land, they are pretty much immune. They have faced that issue how many times the "drunks" fall off the ridge! We haven't. With that in mind, that is only one aspect that we need to take this purchase very seriously. This is no small matter and we do need the entire community on board.
There are reasons why this country is governed by laws, so will this property. TO ENSURE THE SAFETY of the users as well as the enviroment in which we play. I can't stress to the community the importance of everyone turning out for Derbyfest this Memorial Weekend. We will be at the Via Ferratta. We will be presenting all of the vital information regading this purchase so that everyone is on the same page. If we are not, then the hopes of obtaining this will fall to the side.
Ray, I am sorry that you feel this way and I hope that we can come to an understaanding that we are actually playing for the same team! I will be down this weekend, so if you want to get together for a beer or two, just let me know!
Ray,
I can understand your frustration. I totally realize that in your way, you are trying to contribute to the climbing community by providing a valuable resource, ie. the guide. I cannot imagine the time that you have spent to date pulling all of that info together and entering it. Data collection sucks!
When you first started the project, I very openly disagreed with you regarding the publication of the crags in the southern region due to the fact some of them reside in the Murray property and the RRGCC is negotiating on that. Second point, I was also told that the FA's were not ready to disclose further information and was respecting their wishes as well. Then I dropped it. I felt that my opinion was out and this is your website, end of discussion at that.
Then I find out that both John & Hugh approached you regarding the GC, etc. To my knowledge, this was not endorsed by the RRGCC. Maybe I was out of the loop, whatever the case maybe. The purchase of the property is a very daunting challenge for the RRGCC. This assumes a whole different dimension of responsibilites, liabilities, and very long term thinking. We are struggling on a daily basis with the ethics, the risks, & the opportunities. It takes one death to drive home the significance of having a well thought out plan and to have it challenged. This will be our land, the climbing community. Let's face it, death can happen on the USFS land, they are pretty much immune. They have faced that issue how many times the "drunks" fall off the ridge! We haven't. With that in mind, that is only one aspect that we need to take this purchase very seriously. This is no small matter and we do need the entire community on board.
There are reasons why this country is governed by laws, so will this property. TO ENSURE THE SAFETY of the users as well as the enviroment in which we play. I can't stress to the community the importance of everyone turning out for Derbyfest this Memorial Weekend. We will be at the Via Ferratta. We will be presenting all of the vital information regading this purchase so that everyone is on the same page. If we are not, then the hopes of obtaining this will fall to the side.
Ray, I am sorry that you feel this way and I hope that we can come to an understaanding that we are actually playing for the same team! I will be down this weekend, so if you want to get together for a beer or two, just let me know!
Just genuinely disengenuous.
Let's sum up what we have learned through this thread:
1. The mistake made on the part of the RRGCC was not so much in "media relations" as it was sheer lack of diplomacy and "public relations". Nothing goes further in acheiving your goals than good PR mixed with sincerity.
2. What the RRGCC lacks in diplomacy they make up for with good intentions (to the extent of my knowledge).
3. Ray is 32. I didn't know this at all. I still say he and Michelle have fake ID's so they can buy beer.
I DO know however, that he IS a busy man and that if you ask him to do something then be prepared to strap on the work boots and help out if needed.
4. Gretchen (et. al) is correct in saying we all play for the same team, it's just that as individuals we have a tendancy to go about things in our individual ways to acheive the same goals. In my opinion, as long as no one's toes get stepped on or water meter gets run over with a lawnmower, the end justifies the means.
5. This thread has a lot of posts.
Mj
1. The mistake made on the part of the RRGCC was not so much in "media relations" as it was sheer lack of diplomacy and "public relations". Nothing goes further in acheiving your goals than good PR mixed with sincerity.
2. What the RRGCC lacks in diplomacy they make up for with good intentions (to the extent of my knowledge).
3. Ray is 32. I didn't know this at all. I still say he and Michelle have fake ID's so they can buy beer.
I DO know however, that he IS a busy man and that if you ask him to do something then be prepared to strap on the work boots and help out if needed.4. Gretchen (et. al) is correct in saying we all play for the same team, it's just that as individuals we have a tendancy to go about things in our individual ways to acheive the same goals. In my opinion, as long as no one's toes get stepped on or water meter gets run over with a lawnmower, the end justifies the means.
5. This thread has a lot of posts.
Mj
...quitting drinking is kinda like washing your hands after you take a crap...why start now?
To add one more thing. Hugh took the time yesterday to type up a list of the whole Darkside area which will be added to the guide. I'll probably put together an explanation of the Murray property purchase and how donations are needed,etc. which will appear after someone clicks on "Southern Region" in the online guide.
Gretchen, you know more about it than I do. Would you mind putting something together when you have time or should I just take it all from the RRGCC website?
Gretchen, you know more about it than I do. Would you mind putting something together when you have time or should I just take it all from the RRGCC website?
Yo Ray jack dynomite! Listen to my beat box! Bew ch ch pff BEW ch ch pfff! Sweet!
-Horatio
-Horatio
I'd just like to add, SCIN, that in the short time I've been a "member" on your site here, I really appreciate the effort you've put into making it, and the online guidebook. Among other things, if not for Chester suggesting I check out the site and the site existing in the first place, I would not have met SikMonkey, who is a great guy and my new climbing partner/mentor.
Muchas gracias, Senior.
Muchas gracias, Senior.
"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."
D. H. Lawrence
D. H. Lawrence
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Kwas
“I can't stress to the community the importance of everyone turning out for Derbyfest this Memorial Weekend. We will be at the Via Ferratta. We will be presenting all of the vital information regading this purchase so that everyone is on the same page.”
Will this be an open meeting/presentation or must we pay an admission charge to get this “community” information ?
Will this be an open meeting/presentation or must we pay an admission charge to get this “community” information ?