It just kills me........Southern Region

[Artsay]

I know Ray is in total support to do whatever he can to help the RRGCC achieve their goal of purchasing the Murray property. He supports the RRGCC more than most think but he, like most, doesn't like being told what he should and shouldn't do.

There's a reason there aren't advertisements or solicitations for money on this site. Running and maintaining this site isn't cheap or easy. But by not inviting more hands in the pot, Ray is able to keep this site the way he wants: Free ... Free expression and free information.

Those routes will eventually make their way into the guidebook. That's a given. But if the need to get them in quicker would help the coalition in achieving an immediate goal, then that's a special request. And requests are suppose to be approached with courteousness, not with belittlement and force.

I wish Johnny would post. He has a way of making things right.

[Guest]

And requests are suppose to be approached with courteousness, not with belittlement and force.

Amen, sister Michelle!

[Gretchen]

I certainly agree as well. It is a tough line to differentiate sometimes between personal opinion and RRGCC stance, especially in a written forum. Maybe I should post that prior to my comments if that will make things easier to understand.

I have to say that in this particular thread, that initially I was offended by SCIN's direct attack at me as well as the RRGCC. I like SCIN as a friend, we don't have to see eye to eye. In fact the reality is that any organization requires an oppitional view point in order to gain better objectivity. Grant it, we(I) certainly can handle things better. I do not know what spoken words/aggreements were made in order for SCIN to post additional information on the on-line guide, but frankly SCIN has taken a hard line with the RRGCCin the past, so exactly what has he said recently that would suggest a swing in his thought process regarding support of the RRGCC and wanting to do better in the way of support?

[tomdarch]

This sounds like a big screw up on the part of the RRGCC in terms of "media relations".

Ideally, they should have talked it over and formed a plan. They then should have come to you in a personal way (rather than complaining on the forum), explained the plan and asked for your help. That way the switch from "asking" to keep the area quiet, then trying to promote it would have made sense. I suspect, though, that no one ever had this sort of plan in mind.

If I'm thinking of the right posts to the forums regarding including these areas in the online guide, they were, to a fair degree, contentious (aka "bitching") from the start. In hindsight, the requests would have been more effective if they had been as calm as possible, and probably not done out in the open on the forums where they will trigger streams of spew from both sides.

It sounds like the RRGCC folks need to take a step back from the intense and complicated process of purcasing the property and try to form as much of a plan as possible, so that the organization can act in a, well, organized way. You folks know that SCIN takes a 'get things fucking done' attitude (which is why we have this fantastic forum and site) and you need to take that into account.

Also, SCIN, it sounds like you have good reason to be aggrivated, but maybe these folks deserve to be cut even more slack - they aren't a big corporation, they're a bunch of volunteers trying to make things better for almost all the climbers at the Red.

[Kwas]

"In the absence of a formal agreement with the owner, or until general consensus among FAs is reached, or until, or unless, the RRGCC legally owns the crags in question, the RRGCC does not support the promotion, publication or public disclosure through printed guides, on-line guides, directions, maps, etc., of these crags.

The best way for climbers to earn respect, credibilty and continue to gain access on private and public land is to act responsibly, not selfishly. I predict the appropriate time for publication will be here soon enough for everyone to enjoy. A little self-control now will continue to make things go further in the future:)

Shannon"

Well then.

It appears the time has arrived.

[overhung]

Is Gretchen the official spokesperson for the RRGCC? If so, a little more tactful language would give a lot more validity to the coalition. Wes seens to understand this. Imagine a spokesperson from the Access Fund telling someone to "bite them." No offense Gretchen, but the whole coalition thing sounds a bit amateurish.

[Horatio Felacio]

i think the rrgcc needs to post their current plans for this little project. maybe all the coalition members know what's going on, but the non-members have no idea. just rumors. it's a decision that is going to affect everyone and i'd like to know what you fuckers have planned.

the coalition needs to take care of crap like this if you want new members/support. it's this kind of hyppocritical shit that turns a lot of people off. even though i'd say you do more good than harm, i never want to be a part of an "organization" (is that an oxymoron?) like this.

[Spragwa]

It also might help if everyone takes things a little less personally. Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one and thinks that everyone else's stinks. The truth is that all ideas are valid. Also, via the internet, it's sometimes difficult to discern tone. To be screwing around one minute and mouth off "joking" then get pissed off when people razz you back is a little hard to take. Unless you see someone's face, how can anyone know when it stops being a joke and really starts to upset someone. Just a thought.

Also, respect is a two way street. You can't unabashedly attack climbers behind their backs and expect respect. At least this forum gives people an opportunity to communicate.

[Gretchen]

i think the rrgcc needs to post their current plans for this little project. maybe all the coalition members know what's going on, but the non-members have no idea. just rumors. it's a decision that is going to affect everyone and i'd like to know what you fuckers have planned.

the coalition needs to take care of crap like this if you want new members/support. it's this kind of hyppocritical shit that turns a lot of people off. even though i'd say you do more good than harm, i never want to be a part of an "organization" (is that an oxymoron?) like this.

As if we are talked to in a kind way.

We don't have an "official spokes person". I react to what is said on this forum. No I am not going to relay all internal conversations that take place between Shannon and myself or any other RRGCC officals. We have always had an open door policy to all the meetings. We post them as they occur to give the public plenty of opportunity to particiapte. There is always the telephone if you want to talk directly or set up a meeting to gain better understanding of what is going on.



THere are many times that I call SHannon at 7:30 in the morning and ask her "why the hell do we do this?? they don't care about the efforts that are being applied on their (climbing community as a whole) behalf?" and we always conclude with, we do this because we love the sport , we love the community, we love the Red! When you put yourself out there with a voice and opinion, you are going to take it on the chin sometime or another. So take your best shot, my chin is made of steel.

[Wes]

I think Ray and/or Matt, and whoever else should "run" for the CAC, then you will be "in the know" on all this stuff. Even more then you really wanted to know. But, with the postion come some responsability. I have know doubt you could be elected, so maybe give it a go.

Wes
(soon to be former member of the CAC)