I don't know what it's called any more......

[rhunt]

As to the right/privilege distinction, two questions:
-is gay marriage a right or privilege?
-is abortion a right or privilege?
And, if Jesus has nothing to do with it, can you please tell President Shrub?

Wow I can't wait to read how Mr. Gun will respond to these questions.

[tomdarch]

As to the right/privilege distinction, two questions:
-is gay marriage a right or privilege?
-is abortion a right or privilege?
And, if Jesus has nothing to do with it, can you please tell President Shrub?

OK, I can't resist going off on a tangent and thowing a little gas on the fire.

How about this: I agree with el Presidente Jet Fighter Pilot! "Marriage is sacred." Yes! Marriage is a relgious sacrement. As such, the government should have nothing to do with it ("marriage"). I think that given the cultural and historical significance of 'marriage', it's role in mantianing families, popular desire and the fact that it's fused into our legal system, the government probably should have some recognition of this interpersonal union. Let's use the term 'civil union'.

So here's what I'm proposing: the government gets out of 'marriage' and leaves it to churches. Some churches want to recognize same-sex marriages? Great. Others don't recognize them. Fine. That's religion and government should have nothing to say about it. The government, on the other hand, would only deal with 'civil unions'. This would decouple government policy and religion on this topic. This way when the government recognizes same-sex unions as equal to gender heterogeneous unions, it is harder to claim that this some how 'damages' the religious institution of marriage.

So, is marriage a right? (Gay, Straight, Polygamous, whatever) In and of itself, I'd say no. Holding and talking about your religious beliefs are an innate human right, and a religious marriage is probably generally an extention of that right. Wether or not government recognizes that religious ceremony or otherwise creates a marriage-like legal entity is a policy decision.

As for abortion - I can live without death threats. Let's leave that alone.

[rhunt]

So here's what I'm proposing: the government gets out of 'marriage' and leaves it to churches. Some churches want to recognize same-sex marriages? Great. Others don't recognize them. Fine. That's religion and government should have nothing to say about it. The government, on the other hand, would only deal with 'civil unions'. This would decouple government policy and religion on this topic. This way when the government recognizes same-sex unions as equal to gender heterogeneous unions, it is harder to claim that this some how 'damages' the religious institution of marriage.

Hey Tom, isn't that the way it is in some european countries? A couple makes it legal first then they go to the church to receive the sacrament? Actually, that may be how it is here in the US, I don't know, I am not married and probably never will be.

[Crankmas]

if gay marriage is not recognized by states, courts etc. I would assume its neither right nor privilege... abortion rights seem to be fairly well defined by courts, you should research Roe v. Wade

[rhunt]

I agree...equal rights in this country are not a right or a privilege. Oh well, maybe in 08 gay people will come closer to having the same rights that racial minorities have...mabye.

[Cliff Heindel]

...so fuck the Native Americans, Let's all go climbing and talk about saving the whales while we piss on sacred ceremonies.

[Cliff Heindel]

I hope all of your future attempts at dialogue are of the same caliber as your eloquently worded statement above, really, bravo!!!! [/quote]

[Crankmas]

so its whales, I thought it was wells and I was thinking screw those yahoos who are against indoor plumbing... gee

[gunslnga]

As to the right/privilege distinction, two questions:
-is gay marriage a right or privilege?
-is abortion a right or privilege?
And, if Jesus has nothing to do with it, can you please tell President Shrub?

Wow I can't wait to read how Mr. Gun will respond to these questions.

Well, I'll sum this up as quick as I can and in your order....

I don't care who marries who, when, or, where they do it. We were talking rights and privileges, not laws or morals.....I have no homophobic hang ups, so sorry to disapoint you on what you thought would be an obvious right wing answer.

I, once upon a time in my early years after Desert Storm, I worked in personal protection. I was the protector of one Dr. Martin Hascall of the
Womens Medical Center on North Jefferson St. in Cincinnati OH.(abortion clinic)
I was there during one attemted burning and a huge riot by people who claimed to serve the same God I do. I pepper sprayed and drew my weapon on several of them when they tackled my partner. Since you now seem to want to talk about laws, I will support abortion, abortion rights, and, the women who need them as long as it's the law, when it's not, I will re-evaluate my life then. I think if it's needed, then a women has the right to choose what she does with her own body.

As far as the grouping up of of all liberals on the Native American issue, I apologise for the assumptions, it's just that I tend to remember the mass attacks, from the people of opposite mind set, anytime I post anything, they tend to disagree with, again I'm sorry!

p.aul3eb, I obviously do not understand your question, but those examples I posted are what I believe. Meadows stated already my thoughts on respect, morals, rules(written/un-written)ethics, values, etc. etc. I don't think I can accuratley address your second post, as I believe you want a world were we are all enlightened and would live harmoniously without interfering with anyone else's ingrained rights you believe they are/should be born with. some people are optimist, some pesimist, I try to be a realist, most like( the glass is half full because someone did'nt respect me and drank it), that kind of realist. I don't expect the best in people, or the worst, I just expect people to be people. The word Utopia comes to mind when I think about the world we would have if people could actually live and maintain that type of discipline, but as a realist, I dismiss it. Sorry I cannot answer your question sufficiently.

Cliff, Cliff, Cliff, I owe you an apology as well, I'm sorry I gave any credit at all, so again, I'm Sorry

I do also want to apologise for the blatant use of the F@#$ word.
I apologise for my frail humanity, I will aspire to reach a level, where
I fully appreciate my privilege to speak my mind every once in awhile using the occasional explitive. So again, I apologise for any unecessary harm that posing said explitive caused any of you...

An as stated Free Speech is a right
Thsis board is a privilege provided by Ray.....

Carry on.

[Cliff Heindel]

Cliff, Cliff, Cliff, I owe you an apology as well, I'm sorry I gave any credit at all, so again, I'm Sorry

gunsinga-it will take time